INTERVIEW — TAPE #449, SIDE #2
Q: Mark Russell Bell
R: Ruth McKinley-Hover, ACSW Ph.D.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: AMONG THE INFORMATION I BROUGHT WITH ME TO PHOENIX WAS A PAGE OF RADIO STATIONS PLAYING “COAST TO COAST AM” AND “DREAMLAND.” THIS IS WHAT I’M REFERRING TO AS THIS TAPE SIDE BEGINS.)
Q: I thought I’d bring it along with me just in case.
R: Yeah. On KFYI 910. (“WW”) See, we live up beyond the next range of mountains and we come down — I can’t get him up where I live. Let me see if there’s information (“NO”) here that I think . . .
Q: Okay, well when you read my book, what’s interesting is one of the things that — I have some genealogists and my family trees are there. And one of the spirit messages said that I’m of the same ancestral line as Moses and Jesus.
R: Really? I could see that. (“SO”) What do you think about the teachings that Jesus didn’t die and lived out his life in India and had a wife and a bunch of kids.
Q: I heard it was France.
R: Well you get different —
Q: That he was married to Mary Magdalene (“RIGHT”) and they had children.
R: Right and a good-sized family so a genealogy bloodline would be perfectly appropriate.
Q: I don’t know what to think. (“I THINK IT’S”) I think it’s — I don’t know.
R: And we may never know. We may think or believe —
Q: Well what Zecharia Sitchin wrote — he said that there was this pre-Christian mysterium entitled “The Death and Resurrection of Bel-Marduk” and it had to deal with Bel-Marduk being trapped inside the Great Pyramid at Giza. And this was the first resurrection story because he was freed from the Great Pyramid.
R: Have you ever been there?
Q: No. I almost went with my church group.
R: We must take you on one of our trips. When you get home and you look through this, our next one to Egypt is when — in (“NN”) Christmas season next year.
Q: I know all kinds of things through my — (“TT”) just knowledge and research. Like, for example, ankhs I know are keys — the keys of life.
R: Also, Bob has a ring that’s an ankh and he took it off and he held it up. And he says, “You know what this is a symbol for?”
Q: So what’s going on? Is this an encounter group or something over here?
R: No, these are just friends of mine. (“OH”)
Q: So this is like the place to go to and sort of hang out in the area.
R: Here is what an ankh looks like. (“UM-HUH”) And he held that up to me and he said, “That’s the symbol of the hybrid program. Perfect. (“SAID”) It’s a Gray.” Look at that.
Q: The aliens’ symbol?
R: Yeah. Look at it.
Q: (groans)
R: That’s what they’re referring to. That’s the —
Q: Okay well — (“THE THING”)
R: — insignia of the program.
Q: But see I think, again, you have to remember the superstition of the times. (“BECAUSE”) For example, most of my experiences have to deal with a great outside Consciousness rather than just specific aliens as far as I know because I’ve had insect phenomena, I’ve had (“UH”) poltergeist phenomena — I mean where the objects moved. (“YYH”) Um, so there’s been such an array of phenomena.
R: And out-of-body phenomena.
Q: You can’t just say it’s just —
R: No.
Q: — aliens.
R: Well there’s a guy in Missouri. That’s the university. He’s a hotshot professor at the university there. He has written a book where he puts all of it from heaven and hell to alien on a electromagnetic spectrum. And he claims that his theory is really good because it covers everything from biblical — he gets a little bit off — there’s Jim (referring to photo in newspaper clipping)
Q: (reading) “UFOs making Barwood a media star.” What a sad comment on our time.
R: I know. Isn’t it? Okay, here’s Jim with this supposed painting.
Q: Jim Dilettoso.
R: Okay, now supposedly under — he moves into this house with his girlfriend.
Q: He looks like a nerd. He looks very nerdy.
R: They find — well he’s a computer nerd or that’s his cover. (“UH”) They find this painting and they hold it up to some kind of light and underneath it is a painting of an autopsy. And so he claims there’s an alien autopsy from this crash.
Q: That’s so way out there. (“WHERE”)
R: Data is hid in his house. Well —
Q: Maybe he’s trying to cast it all into a goofy light.
R: I have a — yeah. And a lot of disinformation does exactly that — where you can’t possibly get your head around it so you say the whole bunch is nonsense. (“OR”)
Q: Either that or we all have — (“I MEAN”) everyone has their own specific experiences and they’re all made up. (“SO” “FOR VARI”)
R: Or they all come from the group consciousness or —
Q: Or their dreams or —
R: — pieces of it.
Q: — metaphors.
R: Well — and some of it are that. Some of it I would put in that category. But even with all the delusional people, even with all the people describing spiritual/religious experiences da-da-da-da-da-da, there’s still a core of people that there is no other explanation for. And those are the ones that I go, “Shit, I can’t explain this away.” (“YEAH”)
Q: Well some people want to see it as very material — I mean very physical in terms of the abductions. And then you have the delusional people. It’s real hard to see where delusion ends and reality begins.
R: Well mental health professionals have a pretty good measuring stick, which is why we taught that whole workshop is that you can immediately diagnose if delusional thinking—it’s a style of thinking—is going on. That doesn’t mean that abduction is not.
Q: But did you read Judith Orloff’s book?
R: Um-huh.
Q: Because a lot of the cases where — well I’ve also been to her lectures so not all of it was in the book but some of the people she rejected were exactly like some of my experiences.
R: But, see, I have to reject delusional thinkers.
Q: But she thought it was —
R: Not because they didn’t have an experience because I know a guy that I was going to have you get in touch with — that he’s delusional and has been abducted.
Q: Well I think what happens is they misinterpret everything.
R: Or — (“OR”) some of them are pushed into delusional thinking by the trauma of the experience.
Q: Or the drugs — the drugs they give them.
R: Yeah. And that’s military.
Q: Because I had —
R: And you’ll never convince me otherwise. (“K”)
Q: I was given drugs. Okay when I came back, (“AND THEN ALL THIS”) I was manifesting all this phenomena around me. I went to a place in Alhambra for a few days and I know they were filming me — taping me and they drugged me against my wishes. I signed myself in — (“BUT I DIDN’T”) I said no drugs.
R: But they ignored that.
Q: So there was going to be a hearing because they put me on a fifteen-day hold. (“AND NONE”) Me or my family — that was not part of the bargain. (“SO RATH”)
R: Why did you put yourself in? (“BECAUSE MY”)
Q: My brother told me that I was going to, like, a resort. And hot springs — for a few days of relaxation after all my experiences because basically, (“I WOULD” “I”) you know, I have these tapes with all these (“YOU KNOW”) spirit messages so I thought, “Oh my goodness, this is very important for the world.” And my mom said, “Well finish it in (“TWO DAY”) two weeks.” And I thought she was channeling at the time. (“SO I”) I basically wasn’t sleeping — I mean they were very concerned. So — but, anyway, so when I went to Alhambra the phenomena escalated. So I would love to see the tapes that they have there because there were people basically (“PEOPLE” “I GOOD”) who were ambulatory — I mean who couldn’t even speak coherently one moment and then the next moment they’re telling me about crops on Saturn at this time of the year. (“I MEAN YOU KNOW”) It was bizarre. And other times — anyway, there were all kinds of weird things going on so —
R: But there you are mixed in with a bunch of delusionals and maybe some of those delusionals also have had abduction experiences. I just can’t use them for my research —
Q: But these were —
R: — because I can’t weed it out. (“BUT SEE — BUT TH”)
Q: This was not — this was just like a little clinic. There was a bizarre smattering of people and everyday they would change everyone else other than me to see if the same things would happen. And the nurses were saying delusional things too. Like she was saying, “Oh I see we have James Garner here today.” And this man in our group looked nothing like him.
R: (laughs) (“SO”)
Q: The nurses were delusional.
R: Maybe they were tripping on some of the same stuff you guys were getting.
Q: Well I don’t think they were getting it.
R: Now see my first question would be if they’re filming you and they’re taping it down, why did they want to know all that stuff? So my first question is — I would look for a military connection.
Q: They might have —
R: I would look very hard for a military connection.
Q: Well, you know, I tried to contact the doctor afterwards and he never returned my call. I don’t know.
R: Because I have a young lady—well she’s not young any more—in my group who started at age nine and she has drawn me pictures of her experience at age nine. And at first they looked like ghosts. Then they looked like aliens. Then she’s had some classic abduction experiences. And in the last five or ten years — see, she has information she doesn’t know she has.
Q: Oh my gosh. (“NOW”) Okay, so this clipping here — at some point can I get a photocopy of this or will you make me a photocopy of it and mail it to me?
R: Yeah, I will. (“CAUSE THIS”) I want to show you this girl’s —
Q: I hope I get a chance to speak to Selman and I don’t know if he’ll come through but if he’s already talked about it in the press I don’t see what the big deal is. So he actually saw aliens?
R: Okay, this is her experience when she’s nine.
Q: Oh my gosh.
R: And this is her experience when she’s nine.
Q: You know, I must say congratulations on being somebody who isn’t out to make money off a book, which is like the first thing people do. You have better material than anything I’ve seen and your main concern is not —
R: I have the real stuff.
Q: — making money off of it.
R: Starts out she thinks she’s seen Bigfoot. She has a long missing time experience.
Q: No, this one is named ‘Leader.’ That’s ‘Leader.’
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THE DRAWING WAS OF A LARGE ELECTROMAGNETIC BEING.)
R: Leader?
Q: His name is Leader.
R: Okay. Then she in retrospect thinks maybe he was in a space suit but —
Q: No, he’s huge like that.
R: — this woman has been abducted like once a week for the last — well I’ve known her for three years — by the military. They are drugging her.
Q: Ohh.
R: They are picking her brains. She comes back with body symptoms. They break into her house.
Q: You know what I think is going on? In terms of reincarnation? People who have done bad things in previous lives are being thrust into positions of power in our time. It’s almost like their crimes are escalating from lifetime to lifetime.
R: And they’re not working it out right.
Q: And so this is, like, they’re final test.
R: Well I think they’re flunking a whole bunch of them.
Q: Because we’re only here on this Earth — it’s like really one millisecond from our life in eternity.
R: Yeah really.
Q: So they think they have all this power and control.
R: And it’s bullshit.
Q: And they’re just doing it to themselves.
R: It’s bullshit.
Q: They’re doing themselves in.
R: But what really bothers me is that these people — (“LIKE”) he brought his friend with him.
Q: Selman?
R: Yeah. Selman brought a friend in and I put the friend under hypnosis and did a regression with him. And I have worked with military people who’ve been debriefed. Exquisitely. And this guy is denying, under hypnosis, that he’s ever seen anything but he uses the same phrase. “There’s nothing here. There’s nothing anywhere.” And all the while he’s doing it he’s doing motor movements with his hands that I get from my military guys that have been brainwashed.
Q: Oh my God. See, I know I’ve never — they’ve never brainwashed me or anything.
R: How do you know?
Q: Because (“WW”) I have no — (“BECAUSE I”) basically I can account for every moment of my life just about.
R: You think.
Q: I think?
R: Once you’re in print —
Q: Okay, look — (“I” “SO”) well, see, in my life, you also have a whole lot of the religious symbolism which the military could not have done. For example, I worked at Paramount Pictures, (“YOU”) where you have the mountain symbol. The military wasn’t behind that.
R: Yeah, right. Right. (“BUT UM”) Yeah. But if they think that you’ve got anything that is valuable, that they want to know about — (“DON’T KNOW”)
Q: Well I just have information. I have the most valuable information in the world but it all has to deal with honoring your fellow man. And not misusing — and being honorable and decent and loving and good.
R: Now is that message —
Q: Do they want to hear that message?
R: No. And is that message subsequent to your experience?
Q: It’s subsequent to my experience.
R: Because what they’re saying — there are forces within the government who are saying that this is all a scam to put us at rest and not think about what’s really going on.
Q: If they read my book they can put it all together.
R: Well, you know, once this book gets circulated a little bit —
Q: That’s right.
R: And talked about —
Q: I’ve tried. I’ve tried and tried and tried —
R: Tell me about your men in black.
Q: — to get publicity. (“TELL ME ABOUT”) It’s all in there. Basically, when I came back from Oklahoma — well I was saying things about Clinton on the telephone.
R: Oops.
Q: (small laugh)
R: (small laugh) Excuse me. Oops. (“BUT THEN I ALSO”)
Q: But I also said, like, that “Reality is ever changing so let’s say one moment (“HE HAD”) he did kill his treasurer — (“OR”) money man — ”
R: Vince?
Q: Vince Foster. (“TRUE”) The next moment, that might not be the case because reality is ever-changing.
R: Oh and you think that all the realities are simultaneous?
Q: No, I don’t know.
R: I think we have many parallel —
Q: Yeah, they’re all parallel universes but I cannot even think about that.
R: Well all you have to do is watch “Sliders” on TV. They’re getting us acclimated to — get that off for me. (laughs while having trouble taking off the book’s plastic wrapping)
Q: I’ll get it off for you. (“BUT”) You know, I think though in terms of the abductions if the aliens are doing any kinds of reading, I think that they’re trying to read people’s auras.
R: I think they’re reading genetics. (“I THINK”)
Q: Well I think auras are important too because there have been — I’ve read that in other cases.
R: Well, sure, but we’re doing that too.
Q: You know, I did not order — (“YOU KNOW”) the plastic binding was put on by the book company. I did not want this plastic binding.
R: I don’t even think I have scissors. Maybe I have scissors.
Q: They didn’t charge me for this (wrapping). But then, you know what, the printing company went out of business after it was printed. Isn’t that bizarre?
R: Oracle?
Q: Yeah — no — the printing company.
R: Oh.
Q: It was called Griffin.
R: Oh thank you.
Q: Of course, I’m going to throw this plastic away. That would be another good commandment. Thou shalt not litter.
R: Really.
Q: See, there’s my twin brother when we were little.
R: Where’s your twin brother now?
Q: He lives in Manhattan Beach. See, there’s when I worked at Paramount Pictures. There’s one of the photos of the gang.
R: Do you know Mario Kulimo from Bravo?
Q: No. There’s somebody I interviewed. Her name is Doris and she actually worked with Indira Ghandi.
R: Have you talked to any of Yvonne Smith’s . . .
Q: Yvonne Smith. That name sounds familiar.
R: She’s the hypnotherapist up in Verdugo Hills.
Q: No. I read about her. (“IN A FEW”) See, I —
R: Where did you get Mabus from? I know that somehow.
Q: Oh, it’s an anagram in Mark Russell Bell. It was just sort of a funny thing with Nostradamus. He talked about a Mabus — (“OH”) I think he’s misinterpreted as the antichrist.
R: Oh okay. Okay. (“BUT IT’S”)
Q: But it’s really more of a metaphor.
R: Alright. Boy, you’ve got your tapes in here and everything.
Q: As I joke (“I”) — sometimes I’ll joke with people, “When you do something/when I do something kind and loving, I’m Jesus. And when I do something evil, I’m the antichrist.”
R: Okay.
Q: So it’s like a metaphor for other people.
R: Okay.
Q: I think they’re all really metaphor stories.
R: Boy, I’m glad you got this into print before he folded his company.
Q: Well, no, this is my own — I am Oracle Press. I mean I formed the publishing company but the printing company that folded was called Griffin. And they just printed it for me.
R: Oh okay.
Q: So Oracle Press is still alive and well with our website. (“I — I”) Spent my whole life savings on the book and some of the antiques I’ve purchased so right now I’m at sort of a crisis stage —
R: I like this — the angel (on the cover).
Q: Yeah. And, of course, money is the root of all evil.
R: Yeah.
Q: We know that to be true. So right now I’m — (“I’M”) I’m going to have to start going back to work soon.
R: What’s this?
Q: This — okay, you can either interpret that as toast—the bread of life—or as a movie camera.
R: Yeah. Or your computer is —
Q: Or a computer maybe too.
R: — it all in. Yeah. You do have some wonderful pictures. (“YEAH”)
Q: Well that’s why — I see the much larger scheme of things. I’m not really quite sure how aliens fit into it so that’s really what I’m doing on this trip is trying just to get more good, trustworthy information. Not like what you get in the magazines. Because, like, there’s a book there —
R: That is so nuts.
Q: — there’s like a religious article equating aliens and angels and religious things when he hasn’t even read The Nag Hammadi Library.
R: Okay, but — now let me tell you something from my abduction interview. A lady comes to me and tells me that she’s had an angel experience and a healing. And what appeared in her room was a being of light and she describes a certain green color which I, as an investigator, have a black light. And if you come to me and say you were abducted in the last twelve hours, I run my black light over you —
Q: Wow.
R: — and if you glow green — there’s a certain color green that we affiliate with — (“YOU’RE”)
Q: And you’re wearing green.
R: Not the same color. (small laugh) (“MORE”)
Q: This is a Christmas green. Or a light green.
R: Yeah, this is (“IT’S”) a neon green. Anyway, this neon green being with hypnotic eyes looked at her and she was in a great deal of emotional pain and stress and was going to commit suicide. And this being appears and says, “It’s all going to be alright. When you awaken in the morning, everything will be fine, whereupon she falls into a deep sleep. She gets up in the morning and does, in fact, feel less depressed, less desperate, less distress about her situation, goes into the kitchen. Making coffee or something, her mother is sitting here having — she lives with her mother and eight-year-old child — having a cup of coffee and Mother looks at her and says, “When did you have your other kidney operated on? She early in life had had one kidney surgery. Her ill health currently is associated with the other kidney going bad. She didn’t have the money for other kidney surgery. In her missing time or her dream state — (“OR”) since she went to bed, there appears on the other kidney a completely healed scar which was not there a day before. That fits the profile of what we see with alien abductions. To her, it’s an angelic thing. When her eight-year-old daughter comes to her and says, “Those little guys messed up my room. Why do they want to come and play with all my stuff?” And the eight-year-old who has never had any religious training — the mother is a fallen-away Catholic and very deliberately does not put church or Sunday school or teachings upon her child — I grant you I don’t know what Grandma (“HAS”) said to the child — but the child says that she was taken to visit her little friends who are little short guys with big eyes. And they played with her stuff and then they took her with them and she went and she visited Jesus. “How do you know it was Jesus?” “Well because he introduced me to his twelve friends that were sitting around the table.”
Q: He’s an energy source.
R: To this eight-year-old child — she describes Jesus and his apostles which she has no, as far as her mother knows, any knowledge of. And I, myself, looked at the child’s books and stuff and there are no Bible books. There are no Bible stories. There are no Sunday school papers there. So what they’re describing to me is a religious experience. What I’m hearing is similar to “abduction accounts” — color, eyes, size, transported, healings. (“YOUR” or “YOU’RE” “D” “APOSTLES”)
Q: Friends and supportive of Jesus or just people who knew him?
R: According to the little girl, they were his buddies. They were all hanging out together.
Q: When he was alive, they probably gave him as hard a time as just about anyone. (“BUT”)
R: Here you see, “Okay, which pile of data do I put this in? Do I put it in my spiritual pile of data? My religious pile of data? Or my alien?”
Q: Right. Exactly.
R: It has elements of all of that.
Q: And now in terms of the healing, see, I think what (“THEY”) a lot of people think are alien transmitting devices that are implanted to help with some kind of problem. (“BECAUSE THERE WAS A”)
R: Have you seen any of Roger’s —
Q: I saw some on the Art Bell website one time. He had a few.
R: I got to hold that one in person that Roger took out of the couple from Texas.
Q: Really? (“AND”) But there was one large one that went all the way through someone’s brain to the top of their mouth or something?
R: I have an X-ray of that.
Q: See, I think that they were doing something to help the person. (“BUT IT”)
R: Well the one I have an X-ray (“OF”) and an MRI (“OF”) comes around the ear and all the way across the jawline and down to where the carotid is.
Q: Euuu.
R: Well I know when we check people’s energy field and we want to mess with it in any way, the carotid is where you do testing. If I’m going to do muscle testing, applied kinesiology, I do it through the carotid. But this is an ex-military man who has frequent (“O”) abduction events.
Q: Well maybe it’s the military.
R: That’s what I think. I mean that’s a conclusion.
Q: Because they would do something that unethical.
R: Yes. That is my conclusion.
Q: I’m sure they did that to Whitley. (“AND WE CA”) When he talked about the woman (“WHO”) peering over his bed. (“EXCEPT” “TODAY”)
R: Except that the one behind his ear is not military because when you’re with Whitley in person and you’re talking to him and he starts talking about powerful information, you can look at him and this thing gets really red. His whole ear looks like you just clubbed him.
Q: Isn’t that weird?
R: And it’s only when he’s — and then he says, “They know we’re talking about them.” Even as we’re talking, he recognizes that this thing heats up. And I’ve seen that so I do (“BUT”) not believe —
Q: But it just makes you wonder because the government has so much technological that we don’t know about.
R: Oh my yes. (“AND THEY HAVE”)
Q: And they do have alien technology.
R: Sure. (“SO”)
Q: They could have transplanted alien technology into him.
R: Could have.
Q: I don’t know — I mean I don’t know.
R: Except that it functions — have you read his last book?
Q: No.
R: Do.
Q: Which one? The Secret School?
R: The Secret School. He’s a changed man. Between Communion and The Secret School, you’ve seen this man go through agonies of the damned trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with him and what was going on and who are they and what are they doing here to a real acceptance and an understanding and an inclusion of the spiritual side. He’s a different man. Travis Walton’s a different man. (“NOW” “WAIT”)
Q: Is Whitley ‘Victor’ — the famous ‘Victor’?
R: No.
Q: Because the way Victor was talking about mispronouncing the name. It sounded almost like only Whitley would have done that — mispronouncing Whitley’s name so often.
R: No. Because Whitley was present at the filming. Victor is the guy who smuggled out of 51 a seventeen minute — (“STRIP”)
Q: But that doesn’t discount the fact that that wasn’t him. (“O”) He could’ve still been there and smuggled it out.
R: No, he’s in the same room. I have on film Victor here and Whitley here.
Q: Oh so you know who Victor was?
R: Yeah.
Q: Oh. Okay.
R: And —
Q: Because it sounded just like him.
R: No.
Q: And the mannerisms.
R: It is not.
Q: Okay.
R: And I know Whitley well enough that he’d have told me if it was some kind of set up. As a matter of fact, when Whitley looked — Whitley and Bob Dean together — and a couple of abductees — I forget who they were — watched this seventeen minutes of tape and were so distressed, Whitley started to cry. Bob Dean got terribly upset. And so when I looked at the tape —
Q: Uh oh. ‘Bob’ Dean.
R: You don’t trust anything from him, do you?
Q: Well, no — well he says that he used to work for the government and — (“HE STILL”)
R: He did but that’s where he got his —
Q: He still has information he won’t bring forward because he’s worried about having to pay the price.
R: But that’s where he got his information —
Q: Right.
R: — which is —
Q: He’s just another cover-up participant in my book.
R: Maybe. Maybe not because he’s given me everything he’s got. I’ve got that stuff.
Q: Well then it’s up to you. Then you have to share this with the world.
R: I do. I’m very open about what I know.
Q: I know. But you have to maybe go on Art Bell’s show or something.
R: I will be. (“AT THE TI”)
Q: At the right time.
R: But both of them —
Q: But he — because he said that —
R: — who have had face-to-face contact with aliens, were so upset by this video — that we would do the kinds of interrogation that we’re doing with this being — (“WELL”) I got my hands on the video and I’m looking at it — and they put a lot of other stuff around it — the seventeen minutes of the alien himself — you know, I know the autopsy was a hoax and I know a bunch of the other stuff has been a hoax —
Q: Is that — how do you know that was a hoax?
R: It is.
Q: I haven’t seen it, personally. (“BUT”)
R: Oh, it is. I mean — it is. (small laugh) Trust me, it is.
Q: From what I understand, they don’t have organs like we do. (“THEY” “HAVE”)
R: No.
Q: Symbolic organs.
R: Well, they’re not symbolic. They’re just physiologically different, which if I put you in a computer and mutated you down through several generations you might end up like that too.
Q: One man I did interview — (“HIS NAME”) he called himself Ambassador Merlyn. He said that he spoke to one called Trad — an alien called Trad. And Trad said that he could go into different bodies. (“AT” “LIKE”) Let’s say one body gets disposed of, he can enter another alien body. (“DO[ES]”) Does that sound like it could be possible? (“YEAH”)
R: Yeah. And our slang term for that is “shapeshifters.” And actually the consciousness that is one step beyond us — we’re 3-D. You and I can’t help it — we’re 3-D. I don’t care what we do when we go to bed —
Q: (small laugh and/or spirit small laugh)
R: — and what we dream about and what we’re able to think about, we’re three dimensional beings. These beings apparently have such mastery over space, time and matter that it’s as good as magic to us. I mean if you could sit there and shapeshift — and they very definitely can shapeshift — so if I’m —
Q: We all can shapeshift too through reincarnation.
R: True. But these guys can do it as you look at them.
Q: See, I don’t know — well I — we wouldn’t know if we met one, would we?
R: Yeah, you would. I mean I trust you’re intuitive.
Q: Because some of the stories in Oklahoma were such that someone who they thought was a neighbor was actually not. And you have that in other poltergeist cases. So they can assume your —
R: They have total control over matter, space and time. I mean that to us is pure magic. (“BUT”) The thing — the only thing we can use is our human brain and our human skills and as a mental health professional, the best I can do is differentiate delusional thinking from spontaneous thinking. (“UM-HUH”) So if you get it all mixed up in one package, you can’t throw it all out.
Q: Yeah. I’m just looking at this —
R: This is interesting. This will give you some prepar(ation) — this is what Selman looks like. That’s him.
Q: I don’t want to waste our time together by reading this article so if you’ll just maybe make a copy and mail it to me.
R: Yeah, I’ll make a copy and mail it to you.
Q: Hopefully, I’ll speak to him but if not —
R: I hope you do too.
Q: — then at least I’ll get this information. (“LATER”)
R: And maybe this afternoon he’ll be over at the chat club.
Q: Oh really? I told him about it.
R: And you’re going to go and talk to Francis Barwood and you’re going to talk to Jan Ross. (“UM-HUH”)
Q: Now she’s a psychic, too. That’s interesting. (“SHE’S”)
R: That is her profession. She used to run a radio show over here.
Q: It turns out that one of my other friends believes she’s the reincarnation of somebody famous too and I’ll show you her photo. Oh here — no that’s not it. She’s much large — she’s put on a few — some weight since this photo was taken.
R: Who is that?
Q: My friend Fiona. Her name is Fiona Manning.
R: Has she been out on the Expo circuit at all?
Q: No. Not that I know of. She reads cards in L.A. at the Psychic —
R: See — I used to live there. (“THE PSYCHIC” “EYE”) I used to live in Westlake Village. Thousand Oaks.
Q: Well she would also read cards at The Psychic Eye in Venice.
R: That’s — very possibly. Okay.
Q: You might have met her? Well anyway her name is Fiona Manning. She’s one of my best friends. (“BUT”) She’s talking about it now. (“BUT”) She thinks she was Madame Blavatsky in her previous life.
R: But, see, you have no way of being able to document that other than somebody giving you information —
Q: Well it’s like me and Ra Ta — (“RIGH”) that’s why I have that Egyptian pendant and, (“FUNNY”) it’s funny, when I got that pendant, that day in my horoscope it said today you will receive gifts of love. (“SO”) The government didn’t put in —
R: Yeah. (“YOU KNOW” “ZA” “SEE AND”) To the degree that your information is coming from the psychic/telepathic side —
Q: That’s what it is.
R: You may be cursed with getting more information than the general run-of-the-mill but not being able to document it. You know? It’s a question of trust.
Q: Well that’s why I keep my journal and things. My message —
R: It’s a question of trust or belief. Damn it!
Q: See, my message to all of these — (“OH MY”) what’s that that broke? Your earring?
R: The back of my earring. I’m supposed to listen up. I got an ear message. (“ISN’T THAT FUN” “BUT UM” “SO MY”)
Q: My message basically is to all these military people is basic Christianity.
R: Do you think they’ll listen? (“DO THEY WANT TO”)
Q: Do they want to live forever? Do they want to go to heaven instead of hell? Do they want to live in the presence of God or outside of the presence of God?
R: I would say they’d want to live. Period.
Q: Well then they’d better start shaping up.
R: And they’re interested in people like Dan Winter who has done alchemy with powdered gold and is talking about how you can live forever genetically.
Q: So, anyway, this Spiritual Force — a lot of people see it just as aliens but, see, I think God works through people’s subconscious minds so he’s also working through the aliens’ subconscious minds.
R: True.
Q: Sometimes they might even think they’re doing one thing for one reason when He’s having them — there’s really another reason behind it. (“BUT ANYWAY” “WELL”)
R: They tell us themselves. They say we have the same God you do and we are developing and evolving to become One with God.
Q: I see. (“WELL”)
R: We’re on the same journey.
Q: Because —
R: We’re just a different dimension. (“YEAH”)
Q: So basically I do have three new commandments that I channeled.
R: Three?
Q: Well there is probably a lot more but three that I put a news release out (about).
R: Which are?
Q: Well — “Thou Shalt Not Participate In Cover-Ups.”
R: Good.
Q: “Love Is The Only True Religion.”
R: True.
Q: And “Give Back To The World As Much As You Take.”
R: Perfect.
Q: I know. (small laugh) (“SO”)
R: That should be in a little slim volume that just says those three things.
Q: And — well there’s a few —
Q: I thought I’d bring it along with me just in case.
R: Yeah. On KFYI 910. (“WW”) See, we live up beyond the next range of mountains and we come down — I can’t get him up where I live. Let me see if there’s information (“NO”) here that I think . . .
Q: Okay, well when you read my book, what’s interesting is one of the things that — I have some genealogists and my family trees are there. And one of the spirit messages said that I’m of the same ancestral line as Moses and Jesus.
R: Really? I could see that. (“SO”) What do you think about the teachings that Jesus didn’t die and lived out his life in India and had a wife and a bunch of kids.
Q: I heard it was France.
R: Well you get different —
Q: That he was married to Mary Magdalene (“RIGHT”) and they had children.
R: Right and a good-sized family so a genealogy bloodline would be perfectly appropriate.
Q: I don’t know what to think. (“I THINK IT’S”) I think it’s — I don’t know.
R: And we may never know. We may think or believe —
Q: Well what Zecharia Sitchin wrote — he said that there was this pre-Christian mysterium entitled “The Death and Resurrection of Bel-Marduk” and it had to deal with Bel-Marduk being trapped inside the Great Pyramid at Giza. And this was the first resurrection story because he was freed from the Great Pyramid.
R: Have you ever been there?
Q: No. I almost went with my church group.
R: We must take you on one of our trips. When you get home and you look through this, our next one to Egypt is when — in (“NN”) Christmas season next year.
Q: I know all kinds of things through my — (“TT”) just knowledge and research. Like, for example, ankhs I know are keys — the keys of life.
R: Also, Bob has a ring that’s an ankh and he took it off and he held it up. And he says, “You know what this is a symbol for?”
Q: So what’s going on? Is this an encounter group or something over here?
R: No, these are just friends of mine. (“OH”)
Q: So this is like the place to go to and sort of hang out in the area.
R: Here is what an ankh looks like. (“UM-HUH”) And he held that up to me and he said, “That’s the symbol of the hybrid program. Perfect. (“SAID”) It’s a Gray.” Look at that.
Q: The aliens’ symbol?
R: Yeah. Look at it.
Q: (groans)
R: That’s what they’re referring to. That’s the —
Q: Okay well — (“THE THING”)
R: — insignia of the program.
Q: But see I think, again, you have to remember the superstition of the times. (“BECAUSE”) For example, most of my experiences have to deal with a great outside Consciousness rather than just specific aliens as far as I know because I’ve had insect phenomena, I’ve had (“UH”) poltergeist phenomena — I mean where the objects moved. (“YYH”) Um, so there’s been such an array of phenomena.
R: And out-of-body phenomena.
Q: You can’t just say it’s just —
R: No.
Q: — aliens.
R: Well there’s a guy in Missouri. That’s the university. He’s a hotshot professor at the university there. He has written a book where he puts all of it from heaven and hell to alien on a electromagnetic spectrum. And he claims that his theory is really good because it covers everything from biblical — he gets a little bit off — there’s Jim (referring to photo in newspaper clipping)
Q: (reading) “UFOs making Barwood a media star.” What a sad comment on our time.
R: I know. Isn’t it? Okay, here’s Jim with this supposed painting.
Q: Jim Dilettoso.
R: Okay, now supposedly under — he moves into this house with his girlfriend.
Q: He looks like a nerd. He looks very nerdy.
R: They find — well he’s a computer nerd or that’s his cover. (“UH”) They find this painting and they hold it up to some kind of light and underneath it is a painting of an autopsy. And so he claims there’s an alien autopsy from this crash.
Q: That’s so way out there. (“WHERE”)
R: Data is hid in his house. Well —
Q: Maybe he’s trying to cast it all into a goofy light.
R: I have a — yeah. And a lot of disinformation does exactly that — where you can’t possibly get your head around it so you say the whole bunch is nonsense. (“OR”)
Q: Either that or we all have — (“I MEAN”) everyone has their own specific experiences and they’re all made up. (“SO” “FOR VARI”)
R: Or they all come from the group consciousness or —
Q: Or their dreams or —
R: — pieces of it.
Q: — metaphors.
R: Well — and some of it are that. Some of it I would put in that category. But even with all the delusional people, even with all the people describing spiritual/religious experiences da-da-da-da-da-da, there’s still a core of people that there is no other explanation for. And those are the ones that I go, “Shit, I can’t explain this away.” (“YEAH”)
Q: Well some people want to see it as very material — I mean very physical in terms of the abductions. And then you have the delusional people. It’s real hard to see where delusion ends and reality begins.
R: Well mental health professionals have a pretty good measuring stick, which is why we taught that whole workshop is that you can immediately diagnose if delusional thinking—it’s a style of thinking—is going on. That doesn’t mean that abduction is not.
Q: But did you read Judith Orloff’s book?
R: Um-huh.
Q: Because a lot of the cases where — well I’ve also been to her lectures so not all of it was in the book but some of the people she rejected were exactly like some of my experiences.
R: But, see, I have to reject delusional thinkers.
Q: But she thought it was —
R: Not because they didn’t have an experience because I know a guy that I was going to have you get in touch with — that he’s delusional and has been abducted.
Q: Well I think what happens is they misinterpret everything.
R: Or — (“OR”) some of them are pushed into delusional thinking by the trauma of the experience.
Q: Or the drugs — the drugs they give them.
R: Yeah. And that’s military.
Q: Because I had —
R: And you’ll never convince me otherwise. (“K”)
Q: I was given drugs. Okay when I came back, (“AND THEN ALL THIS”) I was manifesting all this phenomena around me. I went to a place in Alhambra for a few days and I know they were filming me — taping me and they drugged me against my wishes. I signed myself in — (“BUT I DIDN’T”) I said no drugs.
R: But they ignored that.
Q: So there was going to be a hearing because they put me on a fifteen-day hold. (“AND NONE”) Me or my family — that was not part of the bargain. (“SO RATH”)
R: Why did you put yourself in? (“BECAUSE MY”)
Q: My brother told me that I was going to, like, a resort. And hot springs — for a few days of relaxation after all my experiences because basically, (“I WOULD” “I”) you know, I have these tapes with all these (“YOU KNOW”) spirit messages so I thought, “Oh my goodness, this is very important for the world.” And my mom said, “Well finish it in (“TWO DAY”) two weeks.” And I thought she was channeling at the time. (“SO I”) I basically wasn’t sleeping — I mean they were very concerned. So — but, anyway, so when I went to Alhambra the phenomena escalated. So I would love to see the tapes that they have there because there were people basically (“PEOPLE” “I GOOD”) who were ambulatory — I mean who couldn’t even speak coherently one moment and then the next moment they’re telling me about crops on Saturn at this time of the year. (“I MEAN YOU KNOW”) It was bizarre. And other times — anyway, there were all kinds of weird things going on so —
R: But there you are mixed in with a bunch of delusionals and maybe some of those delusionals also have had abduction experiences. I just can’t use them for my research —
Q: But these were —
R: — because I can’t weed it out. (“BUT SEE — BUT TH”)
Q: This was not — this was just like a little clinic. There was a bizarre smattering of people and everyday they would change everyone else other than me to see if the same things would happen. And the nurses were saying delusional things too. Like she was saying, “Oh I see we have James Garner here today.” And this man in our group looked nothing like him.
R: (laughs) (“SO”)
Q: The nurses were delusional.
R: Maybe they were tripping on some of the same stuff you guys were getting.
Q: Well I don’t think they were getting it.
R: Now see my first question would be if they’re filming you and they’re taping it down, why did they want to know all that stuff? So my first question is — I would look for a military connection.
Q: They might have —
R: I would look very hard for a military connection.
Q: Well, you know, I tried to contact the doctor afterwards and he never returned my call. I don’t know.
R: Because I have a young lady—well she’s not young any more—in my group who started at age nine and she has drawn me pictures of her experience at age nine. And at first they looked like ghosts. Then they looked like aliens. Then she’s had some classic abduction experiences. And in the last five or ten years — see, she has information she doesn’t know she has.
Q: Oh my gosh. (“NOW”) Okay, so this clipping here — at some point can I get a photocopy of this or will you make me a photocopy of it and mail it to me?
R: Yeah, I will. (“CAUSE THIS”) I want to show you this girl’s —
Q: I hope I get a chance to speak to Selman and I don’t know if he’ll come through but if he’s already talked about it in the press I don’t see what the big deal is. So he actually saw aliens?
R: Okay, this is her experience when she’s nine.
Q: Oh my gosh.
R: And this is her experience when she’s nine.
Q: You know, I must say congratulations on being somebody who isn’t out to make money off a book, which is like the first thing people do. You have better material than anything I’ve seen and your main concern is not —
R: I have the real stuff.
Q: — making money off of it.
R: Starts out she thinks she’s seen Bigfoot. She has a long missing time experience.
Q: No, this one is named ‘Leader.’ That’s ‘Leader.’
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THE DRAWING WAS OF A LARGE ELECTROMAGNETIC BEING.)
R: Leader?
Q: His name is Leader.
R: Okay. Then she in retrospect thinks maybe he was in a space suit but —
Q: No, he’s huge like that.
R: — this woman has been abducted like once a week for the last — well I’ve known her for three years — by the military. They are drugging her.
Q: Ohh.
R: They are picking her brains. She comes back with body symptoms. They break into her house.
Q: You know what I think is going on? In terms of reincarnation? People who have done bad things in previous lives are being thrust into positions of power in our time. It’s almost like their crimes are escalating from lifetime to lifetime.
R: And they’re not working it out right.
Q: And so this is, like, they’re final test.
R: Well I think they’re flunking a whole bunch of them.
Q: Because we’re only here on this Earth — it’s like really one millisecond from our life in eternity.
R: Yeah really.
Q: So they think they have all this power and control.
R: And it’s bullshit.
Q: And they’re just doing it to themselves.
R: It’s bullshit.
Q: They’re doing themselves in.
R: But what really bothers me is that these people — (“LIKE”) he brought his friend with him.
Q: Selman?
R: Yeah. Selman brought a friend in and I put the friend under hypnosis and did a regression with him. And I have worked with military people who’ve been debriefed. Exquisitely. And this guy is denying, under hypnosis, that he’s ever seen anything but he uses the same phrase. “There’s nothing here. There’s nothing anywhere.” And all the while he’s doing it he’s doing motor movements with his hands that I get from my military guys that have been brainwashed.
Q: Oh my God. See, I know I’ve never — they’ve never brainwashed me or anything.
R: How do you know?
Q: Because (“WW”) I have no — (“BECAUSE I”) basically I can account for every moment of my life just about.
R: You think.
Q: I think?
R: Once you’re in print —
Q: Okay, look — (“I” “SO”) well, see, in my life, you also have a whole lot of the religious symbolism which the military could not have done. For example, I worked at Paramount Pictures, (“YOU”) where you have the mountain symbol. The military wasn’t behind that.
R: Yeah, right. Right. (“BUT UM”) Yeah. But if they think that you’ve got anything that is valuable, that they want to know about — (“DON’T KNOW”)
Q: Well I just have information. I have the most valuable information in the world but it all has to deal with honoring your fellow man. And not misusing — and being honorable and decent and loving and good.
R: Now is that message —
Q: Do they want to hear that message?
R: No. And is that message subsequent to your experience?
Q: It’s subsequent to my experience.
R: Because what they’re saying — there are forces within the government who are saying that this is all a scam to put us at rest and not think about what’s really going on.
Q: If they read my book they can put it all together.
R: Well, you know, once this book gets circulated a little bit —
Q: That’s right.
R: And talked about —
Q: I’ve tried. I’ve tried and tried and tried —
R: Tell me about your men in black.
Q: — to get publicity. (“TELL ME ABOUT”) It’s all in there. Basically, when I came back from Oklahoma — well I was saying things about Clinton on the telephone.
R: Oops.
Q: (small laugh)
R: (small laugh) Excuse me. Oops. (“BUT THEN I ALSO”)
Q: But I also said, like, that “Reality is ever changing so let’s say one moment (“HE HAD”) he did kill his treasurer — (“OR”) money man — ”
R: Vince?
Q: Vince Foster. (“TRUE”) The next moment, that might not be the case because reality is ever-changing.
R: Oh and you think that all the realities are simultaneous?
Q: No, I don’t know.
R: I think we have many parallel —
Q: Yeah, they’re all parallel universes but I cannot even think about that.
R: Well all you have to do is watch “Sliders” on TV. They’re getting us acclimated to — get that off for me. (laughs while having trouble taking off the book’s plastic wrapping)
Q: I’ll get it off for you. (“BUT”) You know, I think though in terms of the abductions if the aliens are doing any kinds of reading, I think that they’re trying to read people’s auras.
R: I think they’re reading genetics. (“I THINK”)
Q: Well I think auras are important too because there have been — I’ve read that in other cases.
R: Well, sure, but we’re doing that too.
Q: You know, I did not order — (“YOU KNOW”) the plastic binding was put on by the book company. I did not want this plastic binding.
R: I don’t even think I have scissors. Maybe I have scissors.
Q: They didn’t charge me for this (wrapping). But then, you know what, the printing company went out of business after it was printed. Isn’t that bizarre?
R: Oracle?
Q: Yeah — no — the printing company.
R: Oh.
Q: It was called Griffin.
R: Oh thank you.
Q: Of course, I’m going to throw this plastic away. That would be another good commandment. Thou shalt not litter.
R: Really.
Q: See, there’s my twin brother when we were little.
R: Where’s your twin brother now?
Q: He lives in Manhattan Beach. See, there’s when I worked at Paramount Pictures. There’s one of the photos of the gang.
R: Do you know Mario Kulimo from Bravo?
Q: No. There’s somebody I interviewed. Her name is Doris and she actually worked with Indira Ghandi.
R: Have you talked to any of Yvonne Smith’s . . .
Q: Yvonne Smith. That name sounds familiar.
R: She’s the hypnotherapist up in Verdugo Hills.
Q: No. I read about her. (“IN A FEW”) See, I —
R: Where did you get Mabus from? I know that somehow.
Q: Oh, it’s an anagram in Mark Russell Bell. It was just sort of a funny thing with Nostradamus. He talked about a Mabus — (“OH”) I think he’s misinterpreted as the antichrist.
R: Oh okay. Okay. (“BUT IT’S”)
Q: But it’s really more of a metaphor.
R: Alright. Boy, you’ve got your tapes in here and everything.
Q: As I joke (“I”) — sometimes I’ll joke with people, “When you do something/when I do something kind and loving, I’m Jesus. And when I do something evil, I’m the antichrist.”
R: Okay.
Q: So it’s like a metaphor for other people.
R: Okay.
Q: I think they’re all really metaphor stories.
R: Boy, I’m glad you got this into print before he folded his company.
Q: Well, no, this is my own — I am Oracle Press. I mean I formed the publishing company but the printing company that folded was called Griffin. And they just printed it for me.
R: Oh okay.
Q: So Oracle Press is still alive and well with our website. (“I — I”) Spent my whole life savings on the book and some of the antiques I’ve purchased so right now I’m at sort of a crisis stage —
R: I like this — the angel (on the cover).
Q: Yeah. And, of course, money is the root of all evil.
R: Yeah.
Q: We know that to be true. So right now I’m — (“I’M”) I’m going to have to start going back to work soon.
R: What’s this?
Q: This — okay, you can either interpret that as toast—the bread of life—or as a movie camera.
R: Yeah. Or your computer is —
Q: Or a computer maybe too.
R: — it all in. Yeah. You do have some wonderful pictures. (“YEAH”)
Q: Well that’s why — I see the much larger scheme of things. I’m not really quite sure how aliens fit into it so that’s really what I’m doing on this trip is trying just to get more good, trustworthy information. Not like what you get in the magazines. Because, like, there’s a book there —
R: That is so nuts.
Q: — there’s like a religious article equating aliens and angels and religious things when he hasn’t even read The Nag Hammadi Library.
R: Okay, but — now let me tell you something from my abduction interview. A lady comes to me and tells me that she’s had an angel experience and a healing. And what appeared in her room was a being of light and she describes a certain green color which I, as an investigator, have a black light. And if you come to me and say you were abducted in the last twelve hours, I run my black light over you —
Q: Wow.
R: — and if you glow green — there’s a certain color green that we affiliate with — (“YOU’RE”)
Q: And you’re wearing green.
R: Not the same color. (small laugh) (“MORE”)
Q: This is a Christmas green. Or a light green.
R: Yeah, this is (“IT’S”) a neon green. Anyway, this neon green being with hypnotic eyes looked at her and she was in a great deal of emotional pain and stress and was going to commit suicide. And this being appears and says, “It’s all going to be alright. When you awaken in the morning, everything will be fine, whereupon she falls into a deep sleep. She gets up in the morning and does, in fact, feel less depressed, less desperate, less distress about her situation, goes into the kitchen. Making coffee or something, her mother is sitting here having — she lives with her mother and eight-year-old child — having a cup of coffee and Mother looks at her and says, “When did you have your other kidney operated on? She early in life had had one kidney surgery. Her ill health currently is associated with the other kidney going bad. She didn’t have the money for other kidney surgery. In her missing time or her dream state — (“OR”) since she went to bed, there appears on the other kidney a completely healed scar which was not there a day before. That fits the profile of what we see with alien abductions. To her, it’s an angelic thing. When her eight-year-old daughter comes to her and says, “Those little guys messed up my room. Why do they want to come and play with all my stuff?” And the eight-year-old who has never had any religious training — the mother is a fallen-away Catholic and very deliberately does not put church or Sunday school or teachings upon her child — I grant you I don’t know what Grandma (“HAS”) said to the child — but the child says that she was taken to visit her little friends who are little short guys with big eyes. And they played with her stuff and then they took her with them and she went and she visited Jesus. “How do you know it was Jesus?” “Well because he introduced me to his twelve friends that were sitting around the table.”
Q: He’s an energy source.
R: To this eight-year-old child — she describes Jesus and his apostles which she has no, as far as her mother knows, any knowledge of. And I, myself, looked at the child’s books and stuff and there are no Bible books. There are no Bible stories. There are no Sunday school papers there. So what they’re describing to me is a religious experience. What I’m hearing is similar to “abduction accounts” — color, eyes, size, transported, healings. (“YOUR” or “YOU’RE” “D” “APOSTLES”)
Q: Friends and supportive of Jesus or just people who knew him?
R: According to the little girl, they were his buddies. They were all hanging out together.
Q: When he was alive, they probably gave him as hard a time as just about anyone. (“BUT”)
R: Here you see, “Okay, which pile of data do I put this in? Do I put it in my spiritual pile of data? My religious pile of data? Or my alien?”
Q: Right. Exactly.
R: It has elements of all of that.
Q: And now in terms of the healing, see, I think what (“THEY”) a lot of people think are alien transmitting devices that are implanted to help with some kind of problem. (“BECAUSE THERE WAS A”)
R: Have you seen any of Roger’s —
Q: I saw some on the Art Bell website one time. He had a few.
R: I got to hold that one in person that Roger took out of the couple from Texas.
Q: Really? (“AND”) But there was one large one that went all the way through someone’s brain to the top of their mouth or something?
R: I have an X-ray of that.
Q: See, I think that they were doing something to help the person. (“BUT IT”)
R: Well the one I have an X-ray (“OF”) and an MRI (“OF”) comes around the ear and all the way across the jawline and down to where the carotid is.
Q: Euuu.
R: Well I know when we check people’s energy field and we want to mess with it in any way, the carotid is where you do testing. If I’m going to do muscle testing, applied kinesiology, I do it through the carotid. But this is an ex-military man who has frequent (“O”) abduction events.
Q: Well maybe it’s the military.
R: That’s what I think. I mean that’s a conclusion.
Q: Because they would do something that unethical.
R: Yes. That is my conclusion.
Q: I’m sure they did that to Whitley. (“AND WE CA”) When he talked about the woman (“WHO”) peering over his bed. (“EXCEPT” “TODAY”)
R: Except that the one behind his ear is not military because when you’re with Whitley in person and you’re talking to him and he starts talking about powerful information, you can look at him and this thing gets really red. His whole ear looks like you just clubbed him.
Q: Isn’t that weird?
R: And it’s only when he’s — and then he says, “They know we’re talking about them.” Even as we’re talking, he recognizes that this thing heats up. And I’ve seen that so I do (“BUT”) not believe —
Q: But it just makes you wonder because the government has so much technological that we don’t know about.
R: Oh my yes. (“AND THEY HAVE”)
Q: And they do have alien technology.
R: Sure. (“SO”)
Q: They could have transplanted alien technology into him.
R: Could have.
Q: I don’t know — I mean I don’t know.
R: Except that it functions — have you read his last book?
Q: No.
R: Do.
Q: Which one? The Secret School?
R: The Secret School. He’s a changed man. Between Communion and The Secret School, you’ve seen this man go through agonies of the damned trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with him and what was going on and who are they and what are they doing here to a real acceptance and an understanding and an inclusion of the spiritual side. He’s a different man. Travis Walton’s a different man. (“NOW” “WAIT”)
Q: Is Whitley ‘Victor’ — the famous ‘Victor’?
R: No.
Q: Because the way Victor was talking about mispronouncing the name. It sounded almost like only Whitley would have done that — mispronouncing Whitley’s name so often.
R: No. Because Whitley was present at the filming. Victor is the guy who smuggled out of 51 a seventeen minute — (“STRIP”)
Q: But that doesn’t discount the fact that that wasn’t him. (“O”) He could’ve still been there and smuggled it out.
R: No, he’s in the same room. I have on film Victor here and Whitley here.
Q: Oh so you know who Victor was?
R: Yeah.
Q: Oh. Okay.
R: And —
Q: Because it sounded just like him.
R: No.
Q: And the mannerisms.
R: It is not.
Q: Okay.
R: And I know Whitley well enough that he’d have told me if it was some kind of set up. As a matter of fact, when Whitley looked — Whitley and Bob Dean together — and a couple of abductees — I forget who they were — watched this seventeen minutes of tape and were so distressed, Whitley started to cry. Bob Dean got terribly upset. And so when I looked at the tape —
Q: Uh oh. ‘Bob’ Dean.
R: You don’t trust anything from him, do you?
Q: Well, no — well he says that he used to work for the government and — (“HE STILL”)
R: He did but that’s where he got his —
Q: He still has information he won’t bring forward because he’s worried about having to pay the price.
R: But that’s where he got his information —
Q: Right.
R: — which is —
Q: He’s just another cover-up participant in my book.
R: Maybe. Maybe not because he’s given me everything he’s got. I’ve got that stuff.
Q: Well then it’s up to you. Then you have to share this with the world.
R: I do. I’m very open about what I know.
Q: I know. But you have to maybe go on Art Bell’s show or something.
R: I will be. (“AT THE TI”)
Q: At the right time.
R: But both of them —
Q: But he — because he said that —
R: — who have had face-to-face contact with aliens, were so upset by this video — that we would do the kinds of interrogation that we’re doing with this being — (“WELL”) I got my hands on the video and I’m looking at it — and they put a lot of other stuff around it — the seventeen minutes of the alien himself — you know, I know the autopsy was a hoax and I know a bunch of the other stuff has been a hoax —
Q: Is that — how do you know that was a hoax?
R: It is.
Q: I haven’t seen it, personally. (“BUT”)
R: Oh, it is. I mean — it is. (small laugh) Trust me, it is.
Q: From what I understand, they don’t have organs like we do. (“THEY” “HAVE”)
R: No.
Q: Symbolic organs.
R: Well, they’re not symbolic. They’re just physiologically different, which if I put you in a computer and mutated you down through several generations you might end up like that too.
Q: One man I did interview — (“HIS NAME”) he called himself Ambassador Merlyn. He said that he spoke to one called Trad — an alien called Trad. And Trad said that he could go into different bodies. (“AT” “LIKE”) Let’s say one body gets disposed of, he can enter another alien body. (“DO[ES]”) Does that sound like it could be possible? (“YEAH”)
R: Yeah. And our slang term for that is “shapeshifters.” And actually the consciousness that is one step beyond us — we’re 3-D. You and I can’t help it — we’re 3-D. I don’t care what we do when we go to bed —
Q: (small laugh and/or spirit small laugh)
R: — and what we dream about and what we’re able to think about, we’re three dimensional beings. These beings apparently have such mastery over space, time and matter that it’s as good as magic to us. I mean if you could sit there and shapeshift — and they very definitely can shapeshift — so if I’m —
Q: We all can shapeshift too through reincarnation.
R: True. But these guys can do it as you look at them.
Q: See, I don’t know — well I — we wouldn’t know if we met one, would we?
R: Yeah, you would. I mean I trust you’re intuitive.
Q: Because some of the stories in Oklahoma were such that someone who they thought was a neighbor was actually not. And you have that in other poltergeist cases. So they can assume your —
R: They have total control over matter, space and time. I mean that to us is pure magic. (“BUT”) The thing — the only thing we can use is our human brain and our human skills and as a mental health professional, the best I can do is differentiate delusional thinking from spontaneous thinking. (“UM-HUH”) So if you get it all mixed up in one package, you can’t throw it all out.
Q: Yeah. I’m just looking at this —
R: This is interesting. This will give you some prepar(ation) — this is what Selman looks like. That’s him.
Q: I don’t want to waste our time together by reading this article so if you’ll just maybe make a copy and mail it to me.
R: Yeah, I’ll make a copy and mail it to you.
Q: Hopefully, I’ll speak to him but if not —
R: I hope you do too.
Q: — then at least I’ll get this information. (“LATER”)
R: And maybe this afternoon he’ll be over at the chat club.
Q: Oh really? I told him about it.
R: And you’re going to go and talk to Francis Barwood and you’re going to talk to Jan Ross. (“UM-HUH”)
Q: Now she’s a psychic, too. That’s interesting. (“SHE’S”)
R: That is her profession. She used to run a radio show over here.
Q: It turns out that one of my other friends believes she’s the reincarnation of somebody famous too and I’ll show you her photo. Oh here — no that’s not it. She’s much large — she’s put on a few — some weight since this photo was taken.
R: Who is that?
Q: My friend Fiona. Her name is Fiona Manning.
R: Has she been out on the Expo circuit at all?
Q: No. Not that I know of. She reads cards in L.A. at the Psychic —
R: See — I used to live there. (“THE PSYCHIC” “EYE”) I used to live in Westlake Village. Thousand Oaks.
Q: Well she would also read cards at The Psychic Eye in Venice.
R: That’s — very possibly. Okay.
Q: You might have met her? Well anyway her name is Fiona Manning. She’s one of my best friends. (“BUT”) She’s talking about it now. (“BUT”) She thinks she was Madame Blavatsky in her previous life.
R: But, see, you have no way of being able to document that other than somebody giving you information —
Q: Well it’s like me and Ra Ta — (“RIGH”) that’s why I have that Egyptian pendant and, (“FUNNY”) it’s funny, when I got that pendant, that day in my horoscope it said today you will receive gifts of love. (“SO”) The government didn’t put in —
R: Yeah. (“YOU KNOW” “ZA” “SEE AND”) To the degree that your information is coming from the psychic/telepathic side —
Q: That’s what it is.
R: You may be cursed with getting more information than the general run-of-the-mill but not being able to document it. You know? It’s a question of trust.
Q: Well that’s why I keep my journal and things. My message —
R: It’s a question of trust or belief. Damn it!
Q: See, my message to all of these — (“OH MY”) what’s that that broke? Your earring?
R: The back of my earring. I’m supposed to listen up. I got an ear message. (“ISN’T THAT FUN” “BUT UM” “SO MY”)
Q: My message basically is to all these military people is basic Christianity.
R: Do you think they’ll listen? (“DO THEY WANT TO”)
Q: Do they want to live forever? Do they want to go to heaven instead of hell? Do they want to live in the presence of God or outside of the presence of God?
R: I would say they’d want to live. Period.
Q: Well then they’d better start shaping up.
R: And they’re interested in people like Dan Winter who has done alchemy with powdered gold and is talking about how you can live forever genetically.
Q: So, anyway, this Spiritual Force — a lot of people see it just as aliens but, see, I think God works through people’s subconscious minds so he’s also working through the aliens’ subconscious minds.
R: True.
Q: Sometimes they might even think they’re doing one thing for one reason when He’s having them — there’s really another reason behind it. (“BUT ANYWAY” “WELL”)
R: They tell us themselves. They say we have the same God you do and we are developing and evolving to become One with God.
Q: I see. (“WELL”)
R: We’re on the same journey.
Q: Because —
R: We’re just a different dimension. (“YEAH”)
Q: So basically I do have three new commandments that I channeled.
R: Three?
Q: Well there is probably a lot more but three that I put a news release out (about).
R: Which are?
Q: Well — “Thou Shalt Not Participate In Cover-Ups.”
R: Good.
Q: “Love Is The Only True Religion.”
R: True.
Q: And “Give Back To The World As Much As You Take.”
R: Perfect.
Q: I know. (small laugh) (“SO”)
R: That should be in a little slim volume that just says those three things.
Q: And — well there’s a few —
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