INTERVIEW — TAPE #449, SIDE #1
Q: Mark Russell BellR: Ruth McKinley-Hover, ACSW Ph.D.H: Harry Hover
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS THE FIRST INTERVIEW I RECORDED WHILE VISITING PHOENIX, ARIZONA FEB. 7 – 10, 1998. I’M INCLUDING A PORTION FROM THE END OF THE PREVIOUS TAPE SIDE CONTAINING THE FIRST PART OF THE INTERVIEW WITH DR. HOVER, A PSYCHOTHERAPIST SPECIALIZING IN ANOMALOUS TRAUMA. I INTERVIEWED HER IN A LARGE BOOKSTORE WITH CONVENIENT TABLES AND CHAIRS. THE INTERVIEW TOOK PLACE JUST PRIOR TO MY ATTENDING A SESSION OF THE ART BELL CHAT CLUB OF PHOENIX. AS I BEGAN TRANSCRIBING THIS TAPE SIDE ON JUNE 26, 1998, I THOUGHT ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT CAN BE AT TIMES TO DIFFERENTIATE SPIRIT MESSAGES. AT THE STORE, MUSIC IS PLAYED AND CAN BE HEARD CONSISTENTLY DURING THE INTERVIEW. SOMETIMES BACKGROUND VOICES CAN BE HEARD. SOME OF THESE MAY BE SPIRIT MESSAGES THAT ARE HARD TO DISTINGUISH. I DECIDED TO TRANSCRIBE THIS TAPE AFTER BEING CONTACTED BY THE COORDINATOR OF THE PHOENIX CHAT CLUB, DOUGLAS RICHARDSON, WHO RECENTLY SENT ME EMAIL THAT, IN ADDITION TO EXPRESSING INTEREST IN MY INTERVIEW WITH DR. HOVER, STATED, “OUR CHAT CLUB IS DEVELOPING A RESEARCH GROUP WHICH IS BEING TRAINED TO DO REVERSE SPEECH ANALYSIS. WITH YOUR INTEREST IN TAPES AND WRITING, I THINK YOU’D BE A NATURAL AT THE REVERSE SPEECH WORK…” I RESPONDED, “WHO NEEDS TO REVERSE SPEECH TO FIND MESSAGES? AS YOU CAN SEE BY THE SPIRIT MESSAGES IN MY BOOK, THERE ARE SPIRIT MESSAGES IN ORDINARY SPEECH. SINCE FIRST DISCOVERING THIS PHENOMENON IN MY TRANSCRIBING WORK FOR THE BOOK AND BECOMING FAMILIAR WITH IT, I RECOGNIZE THESE MESSAGES TO BE EVIDENT ON EVERY RADIO BROADCAST.” IT CAN BE VERY HARD TO TRANSCRIBE SPIRIT MESSAGES IN REGULAR OR REVERSE SPEECH. AS I COMMENTED TO DOUG, “I HAVE LISTENED VERY CAREFULLY TO OATES’S REVERSALS AND KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO CORRECTLY TRANSLATE THEM [IT’S DIFFICULT TO TRANSCRIBE CONVERSATION IN GENERAL BECAUSE PEOPLE TALK OVER EACH OTHER AND SOMETIMES SLUR WORDS OR SPEAK FAST]. MANY REVERSE SPEECH PEOPLE DISAGREE ON THE INTERPRETATIONS OF THE SAME LINE AND, FOR EXAMPLE, THE MESSAGE OATES HEARS AS ‘ALL I AM INSIDE’ SOUNDS TO ME TO BEGIN DIFFERENTLY.” THE TITLE OF THE BOOK BY DR. ARTHUR DAVID HORN WITH LYNETTE ANNE MALLORY-HORN THAT RUTH BROUGHT FOR ME IS HUMANITY’S EXTRATERRESTRIAL ORIGINS — ET INFLUENCES ON HUMANKIND’S BIOLOGICAL AND CULTURAL EVOLUTION.)
Q: Hi, Dr. Hover.
R: Hi. How are you?
Q: Very good.
R: I recognized you instantly.
Q: Yes. That’s why — (“THIS”) this (book back cover photo) is handy for that reason.
R: I — yeah.
Q: (sighs) But the rain —
R: I brought a —
Q: — is not cooperating, is it?
R: Oh you poor guy. You come all the way to Arizona and you get this.
Q: Isn’t that funny? How often does it rain in Arizona? (“I”)
R: Three days a year.
Q: A year — right, exactly.
R: (What) can I say? I’m going to come over next to you (moves chair) because I have stuff to show you.
Q: But I couldn’t help on the way over being impressed (“HOW”) there are malls everywhere. (“THEY’RE”) They’ve taken over the world.
R: I know.
Q: It’s just a mall.
R: We live beyond the next range of mountains so I consider this coming to the city — coming over here.
Q: And, plus, look what I was reading on the plane — (“THIS”) magazine I picked up — because I’m really not that knowledgeable about UFOs and aliens so I picked up this Unknown Magazine (No. #2). (“AN[D]”) All the people who write these articles are all sure that they know what they’re talking about.
R: Who’s the publisher? Christopher Fleming.
Q: Artform Graphics.
Q: And they have a website and (“THIS” “ONE”) there’s one article (about a woman) who was on Art Bell’s show named K.T. Biggers (“WHO”) talked about an alien being. It turns out she’s a very — she’s psychic too which I didn’t know before.
R: Now see there’s — that’s a whole other branch of this phenomena. Where’s your book? I want to see your book.
Q: Oh okay. I always bring extra copies because I always — (“SEE UM”) well here’s a copy of the book. In fact, what I might —
Q: — I just got some—a very good Email—comments.
R: Is this a channeled book?
Q: Well — if it is, it wasn’t consciously — (“I MM”) when I started, I wasn’t aware of it. Well it’s a long story. But, anyway, I just got this Email from somebody. (“AND” “HE”) Obviously, he really loved the book so that’s always a good indication.
R: (reading the signature) Swiger — that’s nice. (“UM-HUH” “HE” “I”) Okay — “the voices”?
Q: Well on my — it’s a long (“NICE”) — did you see a special called “Ghosts, Mediums, Psychics: Put To The Test”?
Q: Okay, that’s what first started me off on this. There was this family living in Oklahoma who had this unseen entity living with them and I first read about it in Fortean Times magazine. I had just finished a book about talking poltergeists through history such as the Bell Witch case —
R: Oh yeah yeah yeah.
Q: Gef the Talking Mongoose and a few other ones. (“SO”) “Oh my goodness, a contemporary one. I have to go.” So I didn’t realize that this family also was named Bell at the time so — (“WHICH WAS LIKE”)
R: Are you related?
R: Maybe? Back —
Q: No. It’s a long story.
R: Oh. (“IT” “MY”)
Q: My life is so bizarre — enjoyable but bizarre. So I go out and I interview this family and they actually thought that He was an alien. (“BUT”) The people who did the special tried to make it (“LIKE”) the obvious poltergeist case. But they think that they’re living with a family of aliens. In fact —
R: And probably are.
Q: I brought some extra photos from the inside of the book and there’s this one photo that shows (“LIKE”) transparent faces looking in through a window here which they think are aliens here. (“IN FACT”) And I remember in the special they showed that one face — they showed a heat photo of the one face looking through the window but here it looks like there are many of them. So, if aliens are transparent, well that would explain why they’re so seldom seen.
R: Some are.
Q: Some are? Oh really? (“OH”)
R: Literally. It looks to me from the degree of research I’ve done at this point — I research for Harvard — looks like this has been going on for eons and that what people used to call spirits, spiritual and (“YOU KNOW”) poltergeist stuff is — we’re now attributing to other beings. I mean acknowledging there’s another side and that 50% of what we’re getting people describe to me as an angelic, (“OR”) spiritual being. And they’re describing . . . alien . . .
Q: I talk about whatever is the superstition of the time —
Q: — the poltergeist always likes —
R: Carries it —
Q: — to tie-in with the superstitions (“WHY”) so —
R: Yeah. (“YEAH IT’S AN”) This is an interesting photo.
Q: Yes. (“HAUNT”) That’s obviously a spirit or I guess scientists would call that a neutrino.
R: Did you see the video and I don’t have it with me but it’s an interview with an alien that’s been smuggled out of —
Q: Some people think bigfoots are aliens.
R: Yeah, they are. I think there’s a whole, racial, genetic —
Q: Isn’t that weird?
R: Yeah. And if you play with this a little bit this is the Chubacabras that appear in Puerto Rico and Costa Rica and South America in a more hunched form, smaller form.
Q: My taxi driver on the way over — I was telling him I was going to be doing interviews and he said that he thinks that they’re the result of genetic experimentation — Chubacabras.
R: I think there are some other races.
Q: Well you’ve had a lot of experience. (“SO”)
R: The Chubacabra. And, you know, when we discovered this country, how the Spanish got the Southwest and the French got the Southeast and the British got the Northeast —
Q: Oh is this your husband?
R: Oh —
Q: Hi, nice to meet you.
H: Nice to meet you. Yes, I spoke to you on the phone.
R: See, he carried something real identifiable —
Q: Yes. (My tote bag with the Life magazine logo.)
H: Very good.
R: — so I found him immediately. (“AND I WANT”) I want Bob to meet him too.
H: Okay. . . .
R: Yeah. So when they’re done . . .
Q: Oh my goodness. One of my favorite little sort of trivial anecdotes is people named Bob.
H: Is that right?
Q: I always find something a little bit off about people named Bob.
R: He’s one of my abductees.
Q: Oh really?
H: (small laugh)
R: (small laugh)
Q: Maybe it all started with “Twin Peaks” but I don’t know.
H: Maybe so.
R: It’s very possible.
H: And then you’d love the movie “What’s The Matter With Bob?” with Bill Murray —
R: No — “What About Bob?”
H: “What About Bob?”
R: Well he’s a therapist. (small laugh)
Q: Okay — (“AND MY”) of course, my Uncle Bob.
Q: He might have sexually abused me as a child but I won’t go into that. Do a lot of abductees have abuse in their —
R: Which makes it very difficult to research this because, you know, if it’s random selection — and I’m beginning to doubt that it is. If it’s random selection, you’re going to get some crazy people too. But when we get the crazy people with a little delusional thinking, we can’t use them in our research. I can’t define which is which.
Q: Isn’t that —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I TURNED ON THE TAPE RECORDER AGAIN WHILE LOOKING AT SOME OF RUTH’S PICTORIAL EVIDENCE.)
R: . . . photos of the kind of body marks on abductees.
R: And Mom here has some. It comes and goes on the back of his hand. And when I look at his hand, I can tell when he’s been taken because he describes to me — (“WELL”)
Q: Oh my gosh.
R: — a dream that isn’t a dream. And he has the mark.
Q: Well I’ve always had very bad dermatitis, (“YOU KNOW WHICH”) of course, which is down through the ages — (“BUT UM”) but I remember when I was in Oklahoma, which also was a very high UFO sighting area —
R: Yeah. They’re from Arkansas.
Q: Ada, Oklahoma was right near where I went. Centrahoma. And I remember seeing this one very unusual, like, blister on the inside of my thigh. In fact, I have the transcript of my dermatologist appointment. I also have, like, my therapist interviews. My therapist was (“JUDI”) Judith Orloff.
R: Oh I know that name. Fingerprints — I was looking for the blister.
Q: Fingerprints. (“SEE”)
R: Inside her thigh. (“NO”)
Q: The bruises too. (“ALSO”) (gasps) That ties in with another story that I heard about a man who also was an alien contactee. And he touched somebody and a bruise appeared (“YEAH”) where he touched her.
R: Blister. Is that like yours?
R: No? (“MINE HA[D]”) Mine was — I thought it looked like a radiation burn.
Q: So I asked my dermatologist what he thought and (“HE’D”), of course, how often does he see radiation (“EAH”) —
R: And who’s going to come in off the street with a radiation burn? (“AND WH”)
Q: Where would the radiation — (“YEAH”)
R: How could you have gotten it? And then you have to decide how much do I tell my physician?
Q: Well I had a missing time episode during my interviews. When you re(ad) — because you’ll read that in the transcripts that I ended up doing an unbelievable amount of transcripts in just one day.
Q: Hundreds and hundreds of pages.
R: Ahh. (“AND”)
Q: Really. And there was a voice that I transcribed saying — I was asking them about, ‘Have you ever experienced missing time?’ (“PER”)
R: Who were you interviewing?
Q: This family in Oklahoma. And I was asking them, ‘Have you ever had missing time periods?’ And they said no. (“BUT” “WHEN I”) On the tape, there was a voice saying, “YOU ARE RIGHT NOW.”
R: And then you go on and on, on the tape and when you play the tapes back —
Q: Well now when I look back, I mean it was just like normal time. (“BUT”) The child kept having to go — wetting her diapers and they needed to be changed. Diapers.
R: Inside that time. This is the tape that — I just finished teaching a workshop —
R: — in California.
Q: The same names keep (“POP”) popping up.
Q: Richard Boylan. Barbara Lamb. Plus, ironically, before this all started, I had done the press kit for “Fire In The Sky.”
R: For Travis.
Q: Well — (“THAT I ME[T]”) I can’t remember if I spoke to Travis or not. I remember speaking to Michael, his friend. (“AND”)
[2021 UPDATE: I DISCOVERED THAT I STILL HAVE THE MICROCASSETTE TAPE OF MY INTERVIEWS WITH TRAVIS WALTON AND MICHAEL ROGERS. LISTENING CAREFULLY, I NOTICED INSTANCES OF 'NO' EVP MESSAGES, WHICH SIGNIFIES THAT SOME DEGREE OF AT LEAST MISINTERPRETATION IS INVOLVED.]
R: You probably didn’t speak to Travis. He hides out a lot.
Q: Yeah. I interviewed a lot of UFO experts.
R: Did you do these people too?
Q: You know, I don’t even remember for sure.
R: I brought you some stuff from these people.
Q: Richard Boylan — yes.
R: Okay. (“YES”) Okay. (“ALRI”)
Q: Isn’t he having trouble right now? (“DID HE LOSE HIS”)
R: Oh yes, he’s always had trouble because he gets in his car and he goes to Area 51 and he trespasses and he gets all this information and they get madder than hell and they try to harass him and kill him and do whatever.
Q: Didn’t he lose his therapist license?
R: Oh he lost it. Yeah. But that’s a setup.
Q: That’s what I was thinking.
R: He still has his hypnotherapy license but he lost his counseling license. He lost his practice. He lost his — he was the head of the American Psychological Association up in Sacramento. He lost that.
Q: Ohhh. (“THEY”)
R: They got away with his livelihood.
Q: I felt so sorry for him. In fact, there was that — this famous UFO attorney — can’t remember his name.
R: Peter Gersten.
Q: Right. And I sent Email to him saying, ‘Aren’t you going to help this man?’ And he sent me Email saying, ‘No. Because he really did those things.’
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: HIS EXACT MESSAGE WAS: “MARK, I AM FAMILIAR WITH BOYLAN’S PROBLEMS AND HAVE READ THE APPELLATE COURT’S RULING. I AGREE WITH THE JUDGE….BOYLAN’S PROBLEMS ARE UNRELATED TO ANY AND ALL UFO ISSUES. IT IS A SIMPLE CASE OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT…AND ANY CONNECTION TO A UFO ISSUE IS BEING USED BY BOYLAN TO TAKE ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE TRUE NATURE AND ONUS OF HIS ACTIONS. SORRY BUT THAT IS MY OPINION. PETER”)
Q: And I thought —
R: He didn’t do those things.
Q: No, that’s what I’m saying. (“YEAH”) This guy is a definite government —
Q: He’s definitely a plant. He and that — what’s his name? That UFO — “WHAT”) what does he call himself? Oh oh oh — anyway, I’ll think of his name.
R: You’ve probably talked to a bazillion plants in your work. I try to stay very —
Q: No, I don’t. No, I haven’t because I don’t — (“I DON’T”) this is my first time of really going to the UFO community.
Q: Before it’s just normal everyday people.
R: So you probably got more accurate information.
Q: But the funny thing —
R: Although there’s a hell of a lot of disinformation. Awful lot.
Q: Well that’s why it’s so interesting when you read my story because I had a men in black encounter and how could — so I think it’s really more — I don’t think it’s government. I think it’s alien-connected. [MY INTERLUDE SEEMED OBVIOUSLY WITH GOVERNMENT AGENTS OF SOME TYPE YET WHAT I'VE READ AND VIDEOS I'VE SEEN SUGGEST THE ALTERNATIVE POSSIBILITY.]
R: Well any time you have anything alien-connected, there’s a follow-up because the military or the rogue group that used to be military wants to know what you know. You know, we used to want to know what does the government know. The government now wants to know what do we know. And there’s a lot of interaction subsequent to alien activity that isn’t alien. They want you to think it is.
Q: Well I asked my friend whose father was in the CIA, or something, about that and he said that maybe everyone who goes to Ada they keep track of or something. I thought, “Well that’s an awfully (large group of people) — ”
R: I think they do keep track of — like for a while I was going into a certain website in England and my computer crashed and got a really bad virus.
Q: My computer crashed too this summer.
R: Cleared out — oh yeah. Where did you go?
Q: I’d go into all the UFO sites.
R: Yes. Obviously. So fortunately I have a computer hacker friend who taught me how to get into the sites I want to go to through the back door and they will not be able to track me as easily but I change my password every two weeks.
Q: What site do you think that was?
R: It was Demon County/United Kingdom because I got five —
Q: Demon. I remember that.
R: — piggybacked entities —
Q: What a metaphor. (“THAT”) Demon.
R: — yeah — that kicked me off the net. (“AND” “OH MY”) To get back on, I had to get rid of the virus and they were all using my password to get my information. (“WHICH” or “WITCH”)
Q: Well, I don’t have a — I’ve never used the passwords. I won’t go to a website if they ask for a password because I just think that’s too much for me.
R: You’re on a list. I figure I’m on a list someplace anyway.
Q: Well you are anyway.
R: Of course. (“I MEAN YOU’RE”)
Q: I mean you’re a — (“SU”) you have (abductee) support groups. (“YEAH”)
R: So (“SO”) I can’t worry about that. (“SO”)
Q: So now I’m just curious because I’m trying to make sense of it because I’m — (“YOU READ”) the first thing that ever happened to me when I knew something really was going on was when I had my —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: RUTH SHOWS ME SOME MORE OF HER PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE WHICH DISTRACTS ME FROM TELLING HER ABOUT SOME OF MY CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES.)
Q: Oh my gosh. This is August 8th — what year? (“EIGHTEEN”)
R: Does any of that look like yours?
Q: This one looks more like it — here. This one here looks more like it.
Q: But it’s not — it was just one big clump.
R: This doesn’t show up real well. That’s blistering. And this guy had it all the way across his back as if something had burned it.
Q: Are there more of them here in Arizona?
R: No, not necessarily.
Q: Okay. (“CAUSE THIS IS SUCH A”)
R: I know about these because these are people that I work with.
Q: I see.
R: But — (“BUT”)
Q: It seems like there’s a lot of (“P” “NO”) people in this area that are very knowledgeable about it.
R: Well, you know, we’re surrounded on three sides by Native American reservation and surrounded on three sides by military bases. And Fort Huachuca down by Tucson is the mind control center for the U.S. military. So you’re going to get a real conglomeration of stuff and when you go this afternoon. Francis Barwood and Jan Ross — Francis will probably introduce you to Steve Bassett who is her —
Q: That’s who I was talking — I think he’s government. I think he’s a government operative.
R: I think he is too. (Or “I THINK HE IS TOO”/I can’t be sure if the first time this phrase is heard if Ruth said it or it is a spirit message). I think he is too. And I think it’s too bad that he’s her campaign manager for the UFO issue because you know what kind of a spin that’s going to get on it.
Q: Well I just remember when I first heard him on Art Bell and he was saying, ‘Well you know a lot of people would think she’s a kook’ and he was putting all the emphasis on — and how could she not pick that up?
R: Well —
Q: She doesn’t want to see it. He’s probably very nice and —
R: He is.
Q: — probably even flirts with her.
R: And he’s very knowledgeable. And when she did — I went to her press conference when she threw her hat in the ring. And she had people that flew in at their own expense. She had Bob Dean. She had Jim Marrs —
Q: Bob Dean can’t afford to fly because he was saying he couldn’t go to Washington, D.C. — he couldn’t afford to fly. But he could afford —
R: But, see, he comes from Tucson. He came up with his wife and I’m good friends with his wife.
Q: But still — why didn’t he drive?
R: She probably did. She probably drove him up.
Q: Okay. (“BUT”)
R: Jim Marrs came in.
Q: Jim Marrs.
R: And if you want information that’s really uncontaminated, instead of going to the UFO community —
Q: I know. (“THIS IS”) This magazine made me laugh.
R: Consider — well I know. Consider going to —
Q: They all think they know everything that’s going on.
R: — the investigative reporters. Jim Mars is an investigative reporter. Robert Seliere’s an investigative reporter. Those books give you more hardcore information with less contamination than anything you’ll get out of the UFO community.
Q: Like this picture of a lightship. It seems like a sincere story. (“BUT”) Of course —
R: . . . chicken pie.
Q: — people have sightings but they don’t really lead them to any special insights. (“OTHER THAN”) Well, they do think it is sort of a religious — see this is — did you ever hear about this K.T. Biggers? This is the drawing of the one (alien) that she saw.
R: Yeah. Which is kind of odd, I think.
Q: This looks a little bit like me, I have to say because I have big legs and —
Q: — I have little arms. And I can lift a lot — (“M” “I’M A VERY”) I lift a lot of weight but my arms don’t get huge like a lot of people who lift weight.
R: I want to show you one of the things that has fascinated me in this field forever and ever and why I’m really into it as deep as I am. My husband and I travel. We’re escorts —
Q: (noticing some hieroglyphics) Egypt!
Q: Oh my God. I just downloaded this from the Internet. This exact one.
R: I know. It’s my picture that’s on the Internet. They stole it. (“JIM” “SKYWA”) —
Q: Oh my God. Look — I’ll show — I just downloaded this (“RIGHT”) the day right before I was leaving.
R: Yeah. That’s my picture.
Q: Right here. “The Mysterious Hieroglyphs of Abydos.”
R: Right. And a guy (“IS NOT”) in England wrote an article about it. And he first wrote an article where he said I was a phony because he couldn’t get my negatives. I gave Whitley Strieber my negatives.
Q: Oh my God.
R: And I’m the one who took the pictures. And they put them on the Internet and there’s been a big controversy going. I can give you an enlarged computer photo of that. This is the place where I got them. This is Abydos.
Q: You actually went there?
R: I go — I’ve been there about twenty times.
R: And now it’s blocked off and you can’t get this data. And I got it by just —
Q: Who was the first one? Well I think that — (“WW”) isn’t it a coincidence that we — look at this. There’s a helicopter here.
R: I know. There’s a submarine. There’s a helicopter. That looks like a submersible to me as does that.
Q: Right. This looks like one of those boats — those yachts that skim (“THOSE”) the surface of the water. What are those called? Oh I can’t think anything today. (I couldn’t think of hydrofoil)
R: (small laugh) It’s the rain. I’ve also gone on crop circle research. (“WITH”) The people — and we’re good friends with Colin Andrews. (“AND” “WW”)
Q: These are the — I just (“SO”) think it’s so funny that you would have this exact photo that I downloaded.
R: They’re my photos. Skywatch — (or “SKYWATCH”)
Q: What about these ones on the Internet? Are these your photos?
R: Yeah, these are my photos.
Q: Who’s Sheri Nakken who says that — who has the copyright?
R: Sheri Neilson?
Q: N — A — K — K — E — N? (“SHER”)
R: Oh yeah. Well she’d got them — she’s the one who says — (“NINETEEN NI”)
Q: It says, “Copyright 1997.”
R: Is she the one who says they’re a hoax because the guy in England went and got other photos.
Q: Well let’s see if it looks — is, like, the frame is the same as yours.
R: Oh sure it is. This one. That’s it.
Q: It’s just cropped? No, it’s a little bit different. See — here. Let’s see.
R: See? She’s got the — (“IT’S LL”)
Q: Lighter though.
R: — that part and this thing over here? And this line?
Q: Yeah but it goes further over here.
R: Oh yeah. My picture’s been cropped. (“YEAH”) See?
Q: Anyway, (“I”) there’s a book I just got at the Bodhi Tree called The Bell Notes about the development of the helicopter for the Bell company. For —
R: Oh — oh —
Q: What’s his name? Larry Bell. And I was wondering how does Larry Bell fit into the other Bell companies?
R: I —
Q: I haven’t had time to research (“I”) that yet.
R: I think that that’s just an anomaly. You know? I don’t know that there’s any connection. But that he has — of course, he has the other piece of information because, of course, he’s the one who’s developed our own anti-gravity craft and — that’s flying out of Fort —
Q: See — we have (“GEORGE”) one. (“I UU”)
R: Of course we do.
Q: We have a lot. Is it true that the black budget is eighty billion dollars a year?
R: It’s more than that.
Q: Do you know how many people (“COULD”) we could save from starving to death? (“I MEAN IT”) That’s really (“FOUR”) the Fourth Reich.
R: It boggles the mind.
Q: We are living in the Fourth Reich.
R: And we have no controls over that. You know, that’s all secret government —
Q: I mean if they’re that bad, I’m sure they’re mixing genes — humans and animals. I’m sure they’re doing all kinds of blasphemous things.
R: You don’t certainly think that cloning just came about?
Q: No, I know. They’re probably breaking every law known to man and God.
R: Do you have this book?
Q: No. What is this? Oh, Dr. —
R: This is Dr. Horn’s book and much of it is the same as Zecharia Sitchin. (“RIGHT”)
Q: And I’ve read all of Zecharia Sitchin’s books.
R: I wanted you to have this. This is a little more readable but I think this documents our background.
Q: Dr. Arthur David Horn.
R: Why —
Q: Well, okay, notice the things that — (“WELL SEE”) this is so bizarre. This is going to be the most bizarre thing I’ve told you yet. (“BUT”) Okay, what happened with the Bell — notice the Bell name keeps coming up. The force that I encountered in — (“WW”) it’s with us all the time, this Spiritual Force but It sort of revealed Itself to me when I went to Oklahoma and —
R: As an adult?
Q: Even though I’d had lots of childhood things. It basically revealed to me that I had lived in Egypt and my name then was Bel-Marduk because somebody else had told me that I should call myself Mark Russell Bell — my friend Marie who’d never had anything like that happen to her before.
R: So the Bell is added on to the Mark Russell?
Q: It was added on for my book because we were talking about whether or not I should have a pseudonym and she said she was crossing Sunset. She heard a voice say, “MARK RUSSELL BELL.” This is before I even was that aware of —
R: And you know what Marduk is? Bel-Marduk? Marduk is the planet that disintegrated. (“ONE”) We populated —
Q: Zecharia Sitchin also said he was Ra.
R: That’s the twelfth planet. (“SO” “THERE” or “THEIR” or “THEY’RE”)
Q: Amun-Ra. (“I” “SEE”) I think it’s Amun-Ra not Ra. (“SO”) And then I found — in here (I show her the book photo). I found an Egyptian medallion (“THAT LOOKED”) just like me. It was like looking into a mirror.
R: Oh that’s Akhnaten. That’s Akhnaten.
Q: That’s me.
R: Yes. (“BUT YOU SEE”)
Q: Can you tell? Can you see the resemblance?
R: I can. (“WW”) Your head (“SEE”) needs a little elongating. (“WW”)
Q: I think that — well that’s — isn’t that the truth?
R: See, there’s a whole race of people that we now have mummies from that had heads like that.
Q: It’s so funny that you should mention heads because — I wonder where I put that. I brought something with me —
R: Okay now I have this piece at home. My husband and I are doing a workshop in Greece.
Q: Oh you’re looking at my little antiques (book photo)? (“UH-HUH”)
R: Yeah. I have this piece at home. I have this piece at home.
Q: So you collect antiques too?
R: Well no, I just collect them from the places I go to.
Q: Okay, notice this head in the middle here. Look at the webbing like a Triceratops on the head on that Egyptian piece. So that — I think that I might have had a head like that. (small laugh)
R: You might have. There’s a whole race of beings that did and then they were almost eliminated. We do have mummies like that. See — (“SO”) and it’s really interesting because, like, I’m going to Greece again in a month or so and we’re going to be teaching over there but I collect artifacts. I bring them home and I look at them — like there’s a written artifact in Greece that describes how to make a flying saucer when it’s translated. Which is really interesting. The face does this.
Q: And did you notice here — these are very interesting.
R: What is this? Is this just on the film or do you see that —
Q: No, this was on the carpet. This was left in bird gravel (“ON THE”) on their carpeting. And there was one symbol — okay this symbol here actually turned out to be a — what was it? Egyptian or Aramaic or — (I was trying to remember “Arabic”)
R: This is Aramaic.
Q: For Egypt and it basically meant completion — or leadership. It meant leadership, that’s right.
R: What does this mean?
Q: That’s — I don’t know. That one really hasn’t been — I have in some parts of my book I just have sort of some conjectures about them. This one is the one about completion with the raised arms — the symbol. But this one means leadership in Aramaic (Arabic). I spoke to my friend who was the president of the Golden Globes, at the time, in Hollywood — the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. (“SO”) I don’t even go to movies — I think movies are evil. (“NOW”) Because —
R: Some are.
Q: Well I think —
R: I mean we’re getting —
Q: Because we’re ignoring (“LIKE”) the eco-system because everyone is just so involved in their fantasy lives.
R: But we’re being acculturated as to what to expect and what to accept. I mean if you’ve got commercials out for Volkswagon that are alien origin.
R: I mean — and Bell Telephone, AT&T. What’s the coffee — Columbian coffee. (“I”)
Q: I saw that on the airplane. (“I KNOW” “N N” “ALL”) See, this is all coming from people’s subconscious minds.
R: Right. And it is getting — some of it’s planted. Some of it’s planted so that we become accustomed to it and it isn’t going to be a great shock when the government says, “Oh, by the way, over here at 51 underground we’ve been working with — ” Yeah, I think it’s all to acculturate us. (“O”) I’ve got . . .
Q: What’s really weird is recently I’ve been having sexual fantasies about aliens. Maybe it’s because I’m just now getting into this.
R: Wait until we get into your, you know, what your experience has been. This is —
Q: Oh my God, what was that? (“LITTLE”) That little skeleton one was unbelievable. Oh my gosh. That looks like —
R: As compared to — (these comments concern drawings in Ruth’s album)
R: I’m really fortunate that this woman — unfortunately, she’s also crazy — (“BUT”) she’s a real artist and when she has an event in her life she depicts it.
Q: Very well.
R: Yeah. And her house is covered with these paintings. And there’s a whole story that goes with this. But this is very much like what people describe. “There I was with this being with the widow’s peak and —” da-da-da-da-da. Here she is being taken away. She came back from this event —
Q: Oh my gosh, look at — now these look more like spirits here than aliens.
R: Yeah, they do. They’re ghostlike. Her hands were scoured and she had leaves in her hands from grabbing on.
Q: Just like in the olden days when the mark of the Devil.
R: She’s impelled. She gets out of bed. She’s impelled to go outside.
Q: Oh and last night I had a dream. I had the weirdest dream.
R: Oh boy.
Q: I dreamt that I was — moved in a little house near, I guess, the high school where I went a long time ago (“I” “FIRE”) and one of my friends was there and there was a witch woman across the street and she was saying about how if you eat lots of onions you can fly. And I said, “Oh I know. I’ve been doing that a lot recently and I don’t even need the onions.” And I levitated (“UP”) and then across the street.
R: The actual moving. Yeah.
Q: And I thought, “Oh no — ”
R: Do you have out-of-body experiences?
Q: No. Not that I’m aware of. (“I”) Except — (“I”)
R: Maybe in your dream state.
Q: Right. That’s what I’m saying.
R: You wake up with sleep paralysis?
Q: I used to when I was little.
R: Okay, that’s when you were doing the out-of-body.
Q: I did have — the most recent thing like that was once when I was sleeping I felt an electromagnetic energy passing through my body.
R: That’s the scan.
Q: Well no — I don’t know what it is. I think it — if I had to guess, I would say it was the — some being just passing through me.
R: What about the alternative explanation that, ‘You’re laying there in bed and we have to electromagnetically change your structure. We’re going to literally take you from your bed.” (“WELL”)
Q: When you read my case, you’ll see that They know what I’m doing every second anyway.
R: Of course. (“IN FACT” “A GG”) But if they’re going to do anything genetic, they have to take you there. They can’t do it in your bed. (“BUT THEY DON’T NEED” “YEAH THEY”)
Q: Take your whole body physically?
Q: See, I don’t know about that. I don’t know. (“I — I”) You’ll read my — well I call them —
R: See, I don’t think you can do the consciousness removal unless at some point in your life very early you have been physically taken. If I looked in your bed, you’re gone. And —
Q: Well I do have one — see, I don’t know if it’s a dream (“PEER” or “PIER”) or memory. I do have some vague recollection of going aboard a UFO (“THAT WAS LANDING”) in the heliport in St. — we lived across the street from St. Luke Hospital and there was a small heliport. (“OR”) And there was a little field around there too. And I have — and I don’t even know. That might have been — be a created(meaning dreamed or imagined) memory. I don’t even know.
R: Whether it is or it isn’t though, the chances of you having a very early experience then makes you susceptible or able to have the consciousness . . .
Q: Plus I have a twin brother — an identical twin brother. Talk about genetic manipulation. Oh I forgot I’m not supposed to use the word manipulation.
R: Yeah, right. . . .
Q: Divine guidance is the word they like.
R: Excuse me. Did you see Selman yet?
R: I want to show you his picture.
Q: He hasn’t called me. I mean I had a nice long talk with him before I arrived here and he is amenable to talking with me. I want to go to Sedona so I — (“THINK HE’S”) on the way to —
R: Here are the blisters. (“YEAH”) And here are — these people — no matter whose camera it’s taken with or who takes it, these show up.
Q: Those are great photos.
R: Yeah. See, here’s the blisters.
Q: Are you writing a book?
Q: Because these photos are like the best I’ve seen.
R: Yeah, they’re really good. These are just my people. My research.
Q: I’m surprised you haven’t been on Art Bell yet.
R: Well I’m doing the chat room this month.
Q: Oh you are?
R: And I don’t think I want to be that high profile. I don’t want to end up another Rich Boylan. You know, I don’t want to have my license yanked and I have — my practice that I charge for, that I live on is a regular, conventional, traditional psychotherapy practice. And then my research and my group and my consultancy. And I train investigators for MUFON. All of that is free of charge. (“SO”) They can’t accuse me of “into this for the money.”
Q: (reading) “The houses where the aliens were kept frozen for a while”?
Q: He didn’t mention any of those things to me. I asked him if he’d seen aliens, I think, but he didn’t say anything.
R: He probably won’t. It took him almost two months to screen me enough that he’d talk to me.
Q: What’s this — oh my goodness. Then, there’s an article about — all this is just — I would love to — (gasps) Francis is young.
R: Oh she’s very young. Cute too. That’s younger than she looks now.
Q: Cute. Ohhh.
R: She’s a nice lady. And she’s very well-meaning and she’s very straight-arrow.
Q: I would love to get a copy of these articles.
R: This is probably phony. This is the Jim Dilettoso canvas. It unrolls about the size of from that wall to that wall.
Q: There are some things about him that I don’t really think —
R: There’s — well — (“THERE’S SOM”)
Q: Something wrong about him.
R: Yes, there is. And there are a couple of rumors — the most likely one is that he’s a Majestic Twelve plant in Arizona and runs that lab so that all the UFO pictures go through him.
Q: That would make sense to me.
R: And he can put whatever kind of spin he has to on it.
Q: Why are they so — you know what? I really don’t — I think there will be a day when people won’t even care.
R: No, they won’t.
Q: About these things because people will be so aware —
R: It’ll be in the public consciousness.
Q: I mean the military think that they’re in control and — well, anyway, so — apparently so I was this Ra character. (“SOME”) Have you ever heard of Ra Ta the priest?
Q: Apparently, this was the same character.
R: Cayce was supposed to be also Ra Ta.
Q: Well no, he said — he was channeling.
R: Ra Ta.
Q: He said his power was based upon the Ra (historical basis for E.C.’s power) — anyway, because I’ve read all of his books (supplement material concerning transcripts of Ra Ta) and he said that Ra Ta would again become known to the world in 1998 which fits well in with my book.
R: Is your book going to come out in ’98? (“IT’S”)
Q: Well it’s out now. I mean it’s in bookstores now.
Q: It just hasn’t been noticed by anyone yet.
R: But you are writing another one, right?
Q: Well I’m adding to my website. I have a website and I’m adding new interviews.
R: I’ve got to write that down. And your address too because (“OKAY”) from time to time I may want to send you stuff. (“KILL”)
Q: My address is right here in the book.
R: This is my last interview —
Q: Oh my gosh.
R: — that I did, that I thought was going to be a little tiny blurb and it turned out to be huge.
Q: Todd Elwood? That name sounds familiar.
R: Yeah, he’s a reporter. This I brought for you. This is the travel that we lead.
Q: Ah. Oh, that would be — I would love to go on one of these types of trips to Egypt.
R: And I don’t know — do you have this?
Q: No. (“NO”)
R: Because if you don’t, you can have this one. It’s got background stuff.
Q: Labored Journey To The Stars (by Richard Boylan, Ph.D.). When I was working on “Fire In The Sky,” he was nice enough to send Extraterrestrial Contact and Human Responses.
R: Yes, right.
Q: He does a lot of publishing (“ON”) in this format.
R: Yeah. Well if you can use that, you’re welcome to it.
Q: Yeah, this would be new material for me. Well you’re — it’s really being — giving me a boon of information. This is wonderful.
R: These are all my — I yell at all my people in my group too. If anything happens, I want photos. So everybody has a Polaroid and gives me photos instantly which is wonderful. (“SO”) Oh, I was going to get my pencil and get your address.
Q: So, basically, what my book, I think, does — it goes into enough areas of the paranormal that, basically, after you’ve read the book and you really take it to heart, it enables you (“TO GIVE”) to have a leap of consciousness in terms of putting together all the various elements.
R: Well and you can’t isolate it from the paranormal because 50% of the phenomena is inextricably linked with the paranormal. You can’t get away from it. Okay, Mark, give me your home address.
Q: (gives address) Eight’s my lucky number, by the way.
R: I knew it was Santa Monica when I saw the phone number.
Q: (I begin to mention that my brother and I have the same prefixes for our phone number although we live in different area codes; I then give Email address and then website) There are a lot of fun things there.
R: Yeah, this thing —
Q: I have a section on cover-ups, by the way.
R: Oh very good. (shows me alien picture)
Q: Oh (“NN”) so this is — I know this is Whitley Strieber’s one that he likes. He says that he doesn’t know if it’s real or not. (“BUT”) This is close to what he —
R: When he first put it on the Net, it was up one day and he said it was a photo. Then it was off for a week. Then it came back on. And when it came back on, he said, ‘I don’t know what it is. It’s either a photo or an artist’s rendition.’ And he really backed off. (“UM-HUH”) When I talked to him personally, he told me he believed it to be a photo and —
Q: I wonder why he backed off.
R: Well I think at this point with the amount of documentation people whip on you that “you have to have,” you can say you know something but they’ll attack it. You know —
Q: Oh it gives me — it’s giving me the willies.
Q: You know the funny — (“CAUSE IT”) because when I — this house in Oklahoma, they called him Michael and so I realized It was the same Entity around me. (“NOW”) Of course, I prefer to see It as an Angel but I wonder sometimes if Mighael is —
R: It’s the same thing. (“SINCE HE AROUND”)
Q: Exactly. And maybe (“AND MAYBE THIS”) — anyway, I just still don’t understand really how it all fits together.
R: Well like (“LLLLLLL”) people that I work with — researchers said, “You wouldn’t be into it this deeply if you didn’t have some personal experience.” And I’m saying, “The only personal experience I’ve had has been with my guide, which is a whole spiritual kind of thing.
Q: Do you know the name of your guide?
R: No. But it’s —
Q: It might be the same One.
R: — I know what it looks like. Well — and what they’re telling me is, “That’s an alien.” And I’ve always been comfortable believing — I was very, very sick —
Q: Where does the Amassing of spirits come into it?
R: What do you mean “the amassing of spirits”?
Q: Well, you know, there are these books — because after the name Michael stuck out, there were these books — (“OF”) Messages From Michael books (“WHICH WAS”) contacted through the Ouija Board. But that was an amassing of different spirits. But, of course, there has to be (“O[NE]”) Somebody who’s choosing what spirits go at what time so I sort of see this as —
R: Well I believe that’s us before we got here.
R: I think we sat around with our committee, decided where we were going, who our parents would be, who the other people that are coming back with us would be so that we could work out whatever karmic (“SHIT”) we had to do. And that at that point — I mean that — the committee is a whole bunch of spirits. I mean that’s just a personal —
Q: And so then the leader of the committee would be a guardian angel or a God?
Q: God Himself?
Q: Or Themselves.
R: Or my particular creator God. (“BECAUSE”) I think — like when Barbara Marciniak talks about the creator Gods, she’s talking about the biblical Yahweh — the committee, the bunch. They built Babel as their power. (“I MEAN”)
Q: I know. I’m reading The Nag Hammadi Library and oh my God.
R: Yeah. I’ve got The Nag Hammadi Library and it makes perfect sense to me. (“BUT IT”)
Q: I still don’t know how to interpret it in terms of — (“LIKE”) because it does talk about aliens. But it does cast them in at least an evil light in terms of the technology and here we see —
R: Only that —
Q: — it was used incorrectly.
R: — that we’ve had conflict forever. Even among the next dimensional — and when this planet cosmologically moves to a point where we become fourth dimensional, we’ll all be telepathic. You can’t lie to me anymore because I’ll know what’s in your head and vice-versa. And that is, in fact, what the Bible talks about the golden age.
Q: And so then here with these photos over at Abydos — they had technology.
R: Harry just got back from Abydos. He was there two weeks ago.
Q: They got wiped out — (“THEY” “THEIR”) had a cataclysm that destroyed their society apparently. (“WE’RE”) We’re almost —
R: Except let me tell you about this temple. You can see here hieroglyphics and stuff. It’s where the hieroglyphics have fallen off the structure and are in dust on the ground and underneath it are these and they look lasered in. They are not like the other hieroglyphics.
Q: Look at this. I just realized this little break here looks just like a bell. That’s interesting.
R: But this building is carbon-dated as — well they call it the oldest stone building in Egypt. But the Egyptian temple is on top of a much older building and John Anthony West and Robert Bauval date this — and Whitley Strieber does too — back to 12,500 B.C., which is when the Nefilim lived with us.
Q: I’m surprised they haven’t covered this up. The Egyptian authorities.
R: They’re doing it now.
Q: They are? Ohh.
R: You can’t get in there now. We get in there because we have friends in Egypt.
Q: What about — (“YOU KNOW”) you saw my Egyptian plate. That’s the cover of my second book.
R: Oh neat.
Q: What are they going to do? Cover that up? It’s on the Internet.
R: I don’t think they can now. It’s ev —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: AFTER FINISHING TRANSCRIBING THE FIRST DRAFT OF THIS TAPE SIDE THE NIGHT BEFORE, MY FATHER CALLED ON JUNE 28, 1998 AND I ASKED HIM IF HE HAD EVER DREAMED ABOUT ALIENS AND UFOS. HE ANSWERED, “THEY HAPPEN ALL THE TIME. THAT JUST SHOWS YOU’VE GOT A GOOD MIND.”)