INTERVIEW — TAPE #65, SIDE #2
Q: Mark Russell BellK: Kerstan Carr, acquaintance at PRSC: Carolina Dejong, acquaintance at PRSL: Ellen Russell
Q: Kerstan —
K: I think she is —
Q: — your last name is C — A — R — R?
Q: And we think it’d be great for Shirley MacLaine to come and speak here.
K: Yes, I think it would be nice but also you know what I think also? I think the auditorium would be too small.
Q: That’s okay. (“YEAH”)
K: Yeah, we could have it a whole week, right? So smaller audiences.
Q: But do you think she would ask for too much money, though?
K: I think so.
C: I don’t think so.
K: I think —
C: Why you think so?
K: I don’t know.
C: I don’t — she’s not that money oriented. Of course, she —
K: I don’t know. I’ve always wondered why — the wonderful speakers — they ask for a big fee? I’ve always wondered. You know, when you want to come and listen to somebody, usually it’s a hundred dollars or something.
K: And a lot of people —
Q: Well I know she’s got a condo right on the beach in Malibu because I used to have a friend who would let me go and stay there. And it was right next door to Shirley’s house.
C: You know why I don’t think she will require a lot of money? Because when she went to India (and) she went to China, she’d give her money away to the poor people. She went to — she lived with tribes in some part of Africa.
K: Maybe that’s what she wants to use the money for. It may not be . . .
C: That was past days. No no no, wait a minute. That was past days — twenty years ago. Now she’s doing something else. You know, that was in the book — the first book. What was the name? I forgot.
K: Out on a Limb?
C: No, that was the second. (“NO”)
Q: Well she’s definitely out on a limb if she isn’t giving back as much as she’s taking. From life and God. Right?
C: She thinks we all have our God inside. (“OH YEAH”)
Q: Yes but we still have to give back, right? That’s the theme of my book — is giving back. (“YEAH”) We have to give back. (“EQUAL TO”)
K: Yeah, we have to give back.
Q: In equal proportion to what we take.
Q: And I do remember Shirley did give a lecture here (in L.A.) and she charged like $100 a ticket at the Music Center or something once. Remember that?
C: She did some lectures in Las Vegas too because she was involved in too much.
Q: Well I think that says it all.
C: She’s got some three doctors who perform surgery with no anesthetization , no pain, no nothing. There were tumors removed. You know, to read books of Shirley MacLaine is fascinating. You laugh a lot. Her writing is so light and I just enjoy. I read all of her books.
K: Have you heard of Sai Baba?
Q: Oh yes.
K: Because I heard a friend of my husband — he told me this wonderful story some time ago that when Shirley MacLaine — she was going to have an audience with Sai Baba. Maybe you have heard it too.
Q: No, I haven’t. (“NO”)
K: I don’t know but, anyway, she all of a sudden discovers that she forgot it was going to be videotaped.
Q: Ohhh. (Or “OHHH”)
K: And she forgot her videos.
K: And so they were back in Hollywood. And she had totally forgotten to bring them. So Sai Baba — he said, ‘Okay, when do you want to have them, Shirley?’ ‘Oh I need them. You know, I need them for my audience on Monday with you.’ You know. He said, ‘Okay. No problem.’ And, anyway, so this was on a Friday or something like that. And Monday, you know, her cameramen — they were all ready and they got the videos. Sai Baba: ‘Oh yeah, they have these videos.’ And so when she got back to — and she had no idea how he obtained them, right? So, anyway, he got —
Q: I know how.
K: See? Got back to Hollywood and she goes down to her video store and asks, ‘Did you see anybody come in here on Monday (“NO”) to buy these videos? (“FOR ME”) ‘Oh yeah,’ they said, ‘You know, there was this little man who came, you know.’ (“THEY”) ‘Oh did he have very curly hair and black —?’ ‘Oh yeah, he was here.’ So he came. Sai Baba came.
Q: So now he’s definitely like the holy man?
C: Sai Baba? What nationality?
K: He’s Indian.
C: He’s Indian. Most of them I —
K: I’m always totally fascinated by people who can be in two places at the same time. I mean it’s just incredible.
Q: Well in term of reincarnation since our soul is immortal, we can be living different lifetimes simultaneously and that’s one of the things I’m writing about in my book. So right now you’re each living other lifetimes as we speak. Isn’t that interesting?
K: That would be very interesting. I have enough though to handle just one. (laughs) (“WELL”)
Q: You know, it’s so funny. You were talking about Sai Baba and he’s like the holy man for India. I’m sort of the American equivalent but I don’t do — I don’t work, like, miracles or anything. One of my concepts is that each culture gets the holy man they deserve. So Hollywood and the USA is getting me and I don’t do any miracles. I go out shopping. Isn’t this exactly what America deserves? And somebody who’s writing a tell-all book about Hollywood? Isn’t this exact — (“AND YOU KNOW”) because every movie made is a miracle. I mean I’m exactly what America deserves. Plus I’m not really big on politics. I mean I’m also very — I think that everyone’s who’s involved in the budget crisis should not be reelected. Isn’t this exactly — (“THIS IS” “I”) I’m the voice of reason. (“WHY”)
C: There were many involved. It’s not just one person.
Q: I know. And they all deserve not to be rehired because they betrayed —
C: That’s true.
Q: — the trust of the American people. And I’m talking — this goes for Clinton too. I’m sorry.
C: I like Clinton despite all his faults. To just look at his face.
Q: He’s a Leo. I’m a Leo.
C: He — oh you’re a Leo?
K: I think he’s trying to do his best.
C: Yes. But whatever he do, they don’t let him do. You know, those Republicans —
Q: He did not get the budget on time. And one of the major jobs a President has is to get that budget done in time.
C: Yeah but the way they wanted to get the budget on time, it was just a money (situation?) to resolve on time —
Q: Guess who I want to vote — guess who I think should be the next President.
Q: Colin Powell. (“SOMEBODY”)
C: Oh yes. Yes . . .
K: Too bad he didn’t run.
Q: Somebody who doesn’t want to be President I think would make a good President. Because then you know you’ll get honesty.
K: He’s a good — I think, you know, honestly one of the best Presidents — one I liked was Carter. I think he was very — he had an honesty which was very seldom seen, you know, in the President. And, of course, he was all put down at the time. And —but I think he was just a — (“N”) and I think what he’s doing now speaks for his personality also. (“NO”)
Q: Well I think four years after Colin Powell (“SHE’S DOING”) I think there should be a woman President.
C: Who would be that one? Do you have somebody in mind?
Q: I don’t know. I’ve been thinking like who would make a good woman President. What about that woman who was in charge of health who was fired all of a sudden? I can’t remember the name.
K: Yeah, I liked her.
C: Yes, I liked her too.
Q: But I can’t remember her name.
C: She was a Latin last name. Wasn’t she Cuban? She was — well . . .
K: . . . woman.
C: Oh that’s who — the other one . I got confused.
K: Oh she was very good. (“WHAT”) Because — and she dared speaking up.
Q: Either her or Dr. Laura Schlessinger I think might be good.
K: (small laugh)
Q: Wouldn’t she be good?
K: I don’t know. I haven’t listened.
Q: She’s a bit of a reactionary.
K: Laura is here for a long time.
C: The one that has a program?
K: Yeah. She does it right here.
C: I hear her almost daily.
C: At least a little bit when I’m home.
Q: She seems like a bit of a reactionary —
C: I prefer the other one.
Q: — but her heart is in the right place.
C: I prefer the one — she’s so sweet. She has a channel nine program. He’s also a psychotherapist. Oh —
Q: Oh no not the one from that morning show. Oh what was that — not the blonde one. Not the bimbo please.
C: No no no, she’s so smart and she’s kind. She’s sweet.
Q: Wait, who is this? I’m trying to think. Oh please remember the name.
C: Jocelyn — wait —
K: Oh yeah but wasn’t the black woman — wasn’t her name Jocelyn something?
C: Yes. I will remember. (“WW”) When I push myself to remember, I don’t.
Q: This is good for my book because I never can remember people’s names. And it’s good to know that I’m not stupid.
C: The names have to —
Q: I mean it’s very hard to remember people’s names.
C: And it’s so important when you write a book, you know, to have the names the way they are.
Q: Exactly. (“YEAH”) But (“OH WAIT”) what show does she host? Do you know what she she hosts?
C: Jocelyn . . . she used to have a program on 640 —
Q: Was it “The Other Side”? No.
K: Oh yeah that. What happened to “The Other (Side)”?
C: Oh they don’t have it anymore.
K: They don’t have it.
Q: The problem with “The Other Side” is that they had a really good host. The man. They replaced him with this blonde bimbo who didn’t know anything. (laughs)
K: I don’t —
C: I wonder. I used to watch that one.
K: — because I only saw that a few times and I really liked it.
Q: Yeah, exactly.
C: Me too.
K: And with that gentleman —
Q: It just shows —
K: — and all of a sudden I didn’t see it for some time —
Q: — well —
K: — and this woman was on.
K: And I liked him a lot. He was very good.
Q: I think she had the potential to be somebody good. She just needs —
Q: Direction. Spiritual center.
C: Marilyn Kagen.
C: That’s her name. She has a program on channel nine from two to three. She’s a licensed psychotherapist.
Q: She would be a good possibility too.
C: For President?
Q: Yeah. (“NO”)
K: You know what they would — I was listening here on the radio too. That the reason they don’t like Forbes — people. I mean the reason that they — they feel he should’ve had some kind of political experience. (“HE SHALL BE”)
C: . . . number one.
K: But, you know, I was thinking of Reagan.
C: He didn’t have politic(al) —
K: I mean Reagan — he just came from the —
Q: Right. What other women do you think would make a good President? Ot’s hard, isn’t it?
C: For years I thought Shirley MacLaine would’ve been pretty good.
Q: You know, that isn’t a bad idea.
C: She would love to hear that.
Q: What about somebody like Julie Newmar?
C: Who’s that?
Q: Or Mamie Van Doren?
C: Mamie Van Doren, the one from Marilyn Monroe’s time?
Q: Exactly. You know, I mean she’s in her sixties now but why not? She’s always been very honest.
C: No, but she’s not . . .
Q: If Ronald Reagan can be President, I think Mamie Van Doren can be President.
C: Well they have to be — to have a high level of academic degree to be President. You know they have to — (“LIKE”)
Q: Like Reagan? (small laugh)
C: Well not really. He was a good speaker though. He was a good communicator.
Q: Well trust me. Mamie Van Doren would be a great communicator.
Q: I’m going to call her and tell her my idea.
Q: You never know. (“NOW”)
C: Did you read —
( . . . )
Q: Speaking of insect phenomena, a ladybug just came on my book. Isn’t that sweet?
K: Ahhhhhhhhhh. That’s wonderful. (“YEAH”)
Q: They say that God is even in ladybugs.
K: Yes. Oh yeah.
K: You know, in Denmark — I mean you say it here too, right? We always tell — the ladybug is very important.
K: He’s the one we always say that “fly up to God and ask for good weather tomorrow.”
Q: Isn’t that great?
Q: We have great weather today. Remember last week it was raining. This is unbelievable. Everywhere I go, these things happen to me. You know, insects — it’s like this happens —
K: Well you just attract the right sources.
K: But it is, you know — what I wish in some ways is that more people would always think more about the — your karma. In cause and effect. I think the young people nowadays —
Q: It’s so easy to say “I have great karma and I’m spiritual” but to really have good karma and be spiritual is very difficult. I’m talking from experience.
K: But you know the young people that just go and just do whatever they feel like doing, I feel it’s —
Q: Exactly. Well that’s because they don’t believe that there is a God.
Q: And He’s a God of love but He also can be a very angry God so they’d better behave themselves. That’s another one of the (“YEAH”) themes of my book.
Q: What do you think about God?
K: Well I think God is in everyone everywhere.
Q: We’re each a ‘god’ on Earth.
K: And everything I think is very connected. Like he said, I would love to have a more worldly (out)look. Whatever he said, you know? I would like to be able really to visualize the while I mean. And I think in some ways the more we meditate in some ways, I think the more you feel that you’re a part of the whole.
Q: Exactly. Prayer. Meditation. Well — but isn’t it funny. Like where were you born? You were born in —
K: I’m born in Denmark. (“SO”)
Q: Isn’t that interesting how fate has brought you here now for spiritual progress?
K: Yeah. I know my astrologer. He said years ago, you know, that I am the type that would always live in the United States. Even if — I met my husband on board the boat coming over.
K: But he said even if you hadn’t met him, my destiny really was to be here because I think my temperament is probably more the American temperament than the —
Q: What is the American (“DAY”) temperament?
K: I mean it’s — (small laugh)
Q: Openness, acceptance —
K: Yeah, I think — yeah, exactly. Be — (“CAUSE I THINK”)
Q: It’s supposed to be these things. But then you have ‘the moral majority’ and these people (“MAKE”) that confuse people. (“YEAH”) These people —
K: Yeah. (“WITH A”)
Q: — with a political agenda about abortion or drugs or whatever. It’s very confusing sometimes to the outside world.
K: Well I have always been in some ways more liberal. (“YOU KNOW”) And, there, he flew up.
Q: He’s gone.
K: Is he still there?
Q: It’s more like he just vanished.
K: Now he just flew up and asked for good weather tomorrow.
Q: Okay. (“LIKE”) Like Sai Baba. (laughs)
K: That’s it.
Q: Okay, nice meeting you.
K: Mark, take care.
Q: Okay, you too. See you next week.
( . . . )
Q: (speaking into tape recorder) So thinking about Obadiah’s speech today, he began by talking about Joseph Campbell and the Puritans on the way to the Mayflower and how they had made the mistake of taking the scriptures as being historical and not metaphorical. And they lost their sense of humor. This literal interpretation took the joy out of life, basically. Thank goodness there aren’t any more Puritans. Well there are but they just have different names, I guess. He said the same thing happened with the Jewish heritage. The new Jerusalem he believes was mistakenly interpreted as real estate in the Middle East and there has been nothing but trouble ever since. Actually, I can’t remember if that quote is Obadiah’s or Joseph Campbell’s. You’ll have to buy a copy of his speech, if available, at the Philosophical Research Center and play it because it fits right in with my book. He talked about symbolism through the ages and I picked up a copy of the book (Symbolism Through The Ages) by Kathryn Davis Henry. When I have time, I’ll look through it. But he talked about William Blake’s famous quote about seeing the world in a grain of sand and heaven in a wild flower; ending with eternity in an hour. “God is light and love, joy and peace, freedom and immortality. I am an essence one with the Divine” is something memorable that Obadiah talked about today. He said the riddle of the universe is that every event has behind them an imperceptible smile that is nothing that is everything. I keep wanting to tell him whenever he talks, alludes to this (“THAT”) it’s not just a smile — (“IT’S LIKE”) maniacal laughter. Help! (“THIS IS”) This job that I have is so hard. I mean if I ever just stop to think about the ramifications, I just get very nervous to say it mildly. He said the test of our time is whether we can learn how to live on the interest of nature rather than on her capital. (“LIVE”) So the third eye is the wisdom center, access to wisdom we already have. The central question for everyone is enough or too much — well I don’t know what the hell that means. You’ll have to get his speech if you want to really see it but I’ll just tell you some of the things. He talked about chakras and things that most people don’t know about except people who’ve really studied in these areas. Man is a microscopic representation of the macroscopic (“WO”) pole — and, see, this is what keeps bogging me down is whenever I go to these lectures and these very broad explanations are given and they don’t really mean anything. It’s just mumbo jumbo. I mean you can say that everything in the universe has been captured in minuscule form but, you know, it just doesn’t mean anything really. (“IT JUST”) The meaning is whatever meaning you have in feeling. That’s the only important feeling is the love you feel. So if you want to hear about the seven (“CE[NTER]”) — let’s see (“WHA[T] WA[S]”) — centers of consciousness, you can listen to his talk and if you want just to hear about spiritual dilemmas and how one deals with them, you can read my book because I wrote all these notes and I just don’t even want to relate them — (“IT JUST”) to say that Jacob Boehme, that illiterate cobbler who was an ordinary Catholic Christian who woke up and saw a raindrop outside his shop (“AND”) just noticed a prism of color which triggered his third eye. And he found himself (“WITH”) a Divine, unconditional imperative to deliver God’s Word to mankind, which is exactly what happened to me. And — so Obadiah spoke in his speech today about also Jonah who was to go to Nineveh and give the message of their eminent destruction I guess but after he finally delivered the message after that whole bit of business with the whale, it never happened because God was so happy with the way His message had been responded to. So this was a very positive — something very positive that I learned for my own book. It gives me hope because so often I just feel hopeless because like at the party last night — I just can’t tell you. Anytime you give any smidgen of truth, no matter how absurd or how in passing it is (presented?), people fight and become angry and impassioned: ‘how dare you?’ They become angry: ‘Who do you think you fucking are?’ I mean I won’t name names here. (“BUT”) People are really, really judgmental. And my book is not about judging, it’s about trying to find out the truth when there are many different aspects of the truth; and trying to figure out (“THESE”) spiritual truth. Even though we know what they are, it’s comprehending them and trying to take them to our heart. So when God told Jonah ‘I don’t understand you. Get your perspectives in order.’ Because Jonah was more upset about the vine that died than all those people who didn’t die. It’s the same thing with me. (“I MEAN I”) I’m so wrapped up in my own mission and accomplishing it correctly that I really forget about how important it is for everyone else in the world to understand my message really is meant to be a loving message even though I scream and yell a lot and try to place blame and do all the things I’m not supposed to do. It’s because I don’t know what the fuck I’m doing. I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what to think. It’s ridiculous. So you can listen to his — get his speech and it talks all about people who try to see the synchronicity; and how all these different people throughout the ages have all done that. And now there’s me trying to do the same thing for our time with movies and things like that. And I know no one’s going to believe me either or appreciate me. It’s going to be like a metaphorical rape. I know that. In the course of his conversation, he talked about how when Bell invented the telephone there were other patent applications in the same office at the same time. And DeVona mentioned the hundred monkeys. I wonder if she’s seen “12 Monkeys.” But Obadiah reminded that eight million people converting in one night at Nineveh was quite a miraculous event so I’m hoping people — just a few people will convert to my religion which is God is Love and show it to their fellow man. So he talked about Aurobindo and Spinoza and the connectedness. He talked about the singer Hildegard Von — oh what is her name? I have her CD here. Bingen. Von Bingen. And how she was thrown out of the church for seeing her connectedness but then only to be reinstated a hundred years later after her death. It just shows that people who have these messages to deliver are treated like shit while they’re alive and then later on (“THEY”) people appreciate them. Or sometimes it doesn’t happen that way but usually. And I know the same thing’s going to happen to me. I don’t care. I want to do what’s best for everyone. I don’t care about myself. (“ANYWAY”) The three thoughts that people should do to open their third eye, according to Obadiah, is: (1) You have to find a field of service beyond your egoistic interest. You have to be — what is this? I can’t read my writing. You have to earn leisure time, in the words of Manley Hall. You have to give yourself to it — (“THAT”) oh I finally could read something. (2) Study the wisdom traditions. He talked about the PRS library being a little Alexandria, which I though was nice. And (3) Meditation. Your meditation should be without ceasing and communion. He was talking to a man in an astrology class — he said, “There’s no sense of community here.” And it’s just too bad. So he also talked about how he told the staff, as I mentioned in the bookstore, about when they pick up the phones, remember that they’re talking to a god in the making. Well I certainly agree with that. So he talked about in his lecture the same things I talk about , he just said it a little bit more in relation to past spiritual leaders. He talked about Elijah and Jung — and (“I”) quoted Jung as (“SOME”) saying something to the effect that the first thing you do is find a spiritual discipline, part of your cultural heritage, and take it to its depth and then reach out and become a cosmic citizen of the world, which is something that we all can strive to do. So I don’t know. Everything — I have all these notes here and I jut don’t have the time or the energy or the patience to really go into much more detail than this. I would recommend his lecture like all the lectures at the PRS. I think for people who are looking for answers, it has a lot more of the right questions. (“BECAUSE”) That’s the irony behind all these great men who have been blessed by God over the years. Whatever truths they say—and this includes Sai Baba—they still know nothing at all when it comes to God. They know nothing. I know (“O”) Him better than anyone and I can tell you He’s a (“RU”) raving lunatic — at least in our perception. He is a God of Love but He is so emotional and so vulnerable and so frail He needs a complete idiot like me to give His message to the world because He knows that (“MY”) I have such a thick skin, which He’s helped me to develop over the years, that nothing is going to shut my mouth. So — because He knows that the only thing I have in my life is honesty. And love. Because He’s made damn sure to keep anything else from infringing upon my life. So it’ll be very interesting to see what people’s response is when my book comes out.
( . . . )
Q: Hi. So, anyway, I went (“INNA”) to the lecture today and so I got in late because I was talking to some of the people after the lecture. Do you remember what was the name of that woman who Clinton fired who was in charge of health? You know, the black woman who was fired? Do you remember her name?
L: In charge of health?
Q: Right. (“THE ONE”) She got fired because she was talking about masturbation.
L: Oh. Jocelyn?
Q: Right. (“WAS THAT HER”) That’s her first name. (“WAS IT”)
L: Jocelyn Elders?
Q: Elders. E — L — L — D — E — R — S?
L: I think it only has one L.
Q: One L. Elders. Yeah. It just came — popped into my mind about the same time it popped into your mind. I wish I could’ve remembered it today when I was talking to them. We were talking about possible female Presidents for the United States and her name came up and a few others like Shirley MacLaine. And (“SOME”), you know, like TV and radio shrinks. Do you have any — who do you think would make a good female President of the United States?
L: I have no idea. There isn’t anyone that I would vote for that?
Q: Not a one? You can’t think of anyone? What about, like, a wife — like a pop . . . (listening device malfunction) (“LIKE”) sometimes they impress me as being much smarter than their husbands. Like that Senate candidate. Remember? Who Lost? (“WHO”) Barely lost? And he had that wife who was in the New Age movement? She was very impressive.
L: No, I don’t know. (“I CA” “MEMBER” “YOU KNOW”)
Q: He lost to Feinstein.
L: Oh, you mean the rich man. I know who you mean.
L: The real rich. (“HOW”)
Q: His wife I thought was really, really smart. I saw her interviewed on TV when I could watch TV. And then who else? Oh, the wife of Bush’s vice president. His wife.
L: Please. Not Tipper.
Q: No, I’m talking about Bush.
L: Oh you mean Quayle’s wife.
Q: Right. Now she seems to me like a real smart cookie.
L: Well yeah . . . well what — I mean first of all what is this conversation about? I mean —
Q: Well I’m working on my book. (“MM”) My sequel to the book you’ve been reading.
L: You mean that you discussed — people discussed who would be President at the lecture.
Q: Yes. We’re very spiritual over there. We talk — (“WE”) try to think of things that will help mankind. (“N”) Having a good President will definitely help mankind. (“ADD”) Plus, it’s sort of a tell-all — well, you know, my next book after the one you’re reading now gets into these — you know, politics and the film industry to a small level. (“I MEAN”) It’s still pretty much a very spiritual look. (“AT”) My own enigmatic questions (“WW”) involving God.
L: Right now I have on “Face The Nation.” And that’s — you know I listen to political programs.
Q: Right. That’s why I asked you. I thought you would know someone — (“WHO”) a good woman for President.
L: Well no. I mean first of all there’s nobody right now I’d vote for. Period.
Q: What about —
L: Republican or Democrat.
Q: What about Colin Powell?
Q: Well he’s not running now.
L: He’s not running. (“I ME”) One’s as good as the other.
Q: No, it isn’t. That’s not true.
L: At this time in my life, I see a Democrat. Because the Democrats are the ones that —
Q: Yeah but the Republicans control the House. (“WELL”)
L: They control all of Congress. . . .
Q: Exactly. I think — let me just —
L: You must remember —
Q: I think Reagan and I think everyone who has been President has been a good President. So I think it’s really more peop(le) — good — everyone who gets the job is good. (“BUT”) They’re just doing the best they can under a very difficult situation. But I think we should get a President who does not want to be President so they won’t be so fucking political all the time. Like Clinton is being with the fucking budget. (“SO” “YOU KNOW”) Someone who doesn’t want to be President. Like Powell.
L: Well if they don’t want to be President — I mean that’s like saying —
Q: I don’t want to be who I am.
L: Well you aren’t —
Q: The author of new Testament. Come on. You think I want to be that?
L: Well then why do you do it?
Q: Because there’s no ifs, ands or buts about it. (“THIS WAS A”) It was like a calling. Like you said when I told you. (“YOU SAID” “YOU HA”) “You had a call?’ Yes, I had a call.
L: Well, anyway, politics are —
Q: You can’t win. I know. (“SO”) Have you been reading my book? What do you think?
L: Well I haven’t really read too much more, honey. (“BUWHYOU”) I read it in the mornings a little bit.
Q: But what are your perceptions, basically?
L: Of what?
Q: The book.