JOURNAL / REPORTING — TAPE #257 , SIDE #2
Q: Mark Russell Bell
A: Art Bell (portion of radio broadcast)
B: Robert Ghost Wolf (portion of radio broadcast)
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I LATER DISCOVERED THAT THE INSCRIPTION CAN BE FOUND ON ALL COPIES OF THIS EDITION OF H.R. GIGER’S BOOK.)
Q: I’ll maybe even show him a few of my own acrylic paintings. He also knew Mark (Scruggs), that other painter who I met and seemed to vanish from the scene. He had one of his pieces there too which I’d like to buy as a souvenir. We’ll see if my horoscope someday says ‘art piece’ or something. I’m still very nervous about my finances.
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Q: Oh hi, Scott, this is Mark Russell Bell. Just wanted to follow up with you after the interview and wanted to ask a few quick questions because I always add transcripts to the interviews, of course, to my website. So I wanted to ask you if you can let me know who was ‘Death Row Girl’ or nickname? That’s what it sounded like he was saying. ‘Death Row Girl.’ So I’d appreciate letting me know. If you call me, of course, it’s (gives number). Thank you.
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Q: So Michael, my brother, gave me a tip from Michael Dowling about a video company that needed a freelancer so I just called them and it turns out they’re up near Magic Mountain, which is very far away. And when I told them I was getting $150 a day at Rogers & Cowan they were flabbergasted. As if that was a great deal of money when it’s considered nothing in the business. So I sent my resume and told them to look it over (fax tone) and discuss it if they’re still interested. I said maybe I could do some work out of my home. Anyway, we’ll see what they have to say. What a nightmare. Why didn’t any of the good jobs that I applied to, call me back? (“I WAS”) I had the right credits. I have the experience. I don’t understand it.
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Q: So I better catch up on my excerpts from the Art Bell show. (ANIMAL CRY) I taped Robert Ghost Wolf’s interview and that of Brother Theron Muhammad Ali.
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Q: So, of course, now that I have found out about my own Mohawk ancestry, I know how unimportant all of that is in terms of how we define ourselves. I mean for some people it’s fine if that’s what they care to do. (“BUT”) I can’t be bothered, personally. I do believe (“THAT”) all wisdom traditions have interesting things in them but I’m certainly not going to hang out in sweat lodges. Anyway, here goes.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I TAPED EXCERPTS ONTO MICROCASSETTE OF THE JULY 23/24, 1997 “COAST TO COAST AM” SHOW AND THEN WENT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL CASSETTE TO ADD A FEW COMMENTS I HAD MISSED. SOME OF THE WORDS AT THE BEGINNING, END OR MIDDLE [LINKING WORDS SUCH AS “SO”] OF SENTENCES ATTRIBUTED TO ART OR ROBERT MAY ACTUALLY BE SPIRIT MESSAGES.)
A: Robert, give us your background. You’re native American and you’re kind of a mixture native American? (“I”)
B: I’m what they call a Metis, Art. I’m a mixed blood. I have Lakota and Iroquois and European and basically I have been working again with elders for twenty-five years, going around talking and working and collecting stones and finding out different truths and it’s been a pretty incredible journey.
A: And dancing.
B: And dancing.
A: (small laugh) (“TELL HIM”)
A: You’re a native American dancer.
B: Yes. And basically I got caught up in, I guess about two years ago, because of the work that I was doing and people heard what I was saying. And a lot of what we were — and probably going to be talking about tonight with the weather and all of that, I have out in my book Last Cry.
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A: There are things going on that I think are more than just initial little canary-type warning signs for humanity. And I don’t even know where to start. Linda Moulton Howe had an extended report on “Dreamland” . . . on fisteria, this “cell from hell” thing which was in the estuaries of North Carolina. Now it has spread into the ocean, surviving very well, thank you, in the salt water and there are millions—not hundreds of thousands but millions—of fish with large, open bleeding sores dying off the coast. Now that’s a fact.
B: This is on the East Coast.
A: Yeah, it’s on the East Coast and it’s spreading up and down the coast at a very rapid pace. And, worse yet, it’s beginning to be transmitted to human beings who now in many areas simply cannot go in the water period. And the only advice they’re giving is, “If you see dead fish, don’t go in the water.” That is one item. You can look at Antarctica where the ozone now is beginning to get so thick and so bad that they’re getting actual DNA changes in simple-celled organisms. School children have to wear headgear when they go outside. We’ve got frogs with a gazillion legs. I had a story of one with eleven legs the other day. I talked to Bob Crane earlier tonight, a couple hours ago. He lives up in Fortuna, California, up where the Redwoods are. And he said, “Art, I’ve never seen anything like it. The leaves are turning yellow and falling off the trees.” He said, “This has never, ever happened before.” My crops are ripening early. I just got a message from Salt Lake City saying the NBC affiliate there reported that Fish and Game has spotted migratory birds flying south already — birds flying south in July. The middle of September maybe but July? Seasons’ “Don’t Fear The Reaper”! (small laugh) In other words, everywhere you turn and look at Mother Nature and Earth, something’s going on, Robert.
B: Art, it’s a show. Something’s definitely going on. I, myself, just coming up from Arizona — up through Montana there were flocks of geese flying south so I will affirm that report.
B: I mean whole flocks of geese flying south and what surprised me too when I was down in Arizona, which I didn’t expect, was the — well, I didn’t see an eleven-legged frog. (“BUT”) I did see a six-legged frog.
B: And jack rabbits with three and four ears.
B: Yeah. Jack rabbits with three and four ears.
A: I’ve never seen that.
B: Well, I’ve never seen it in the desert which has really got me concerned because if it’s in the desert then it’s all over, you know? It’s not just coming down a river. It’s like (“BIZ”) it’s all over. It’s animal mutations, which goes back to your DNA situation. Now what I can say about it is that we are going through tremendous electro-magnetic fluctuations of the poles. They’re shifting. (“THE”) The poles on the sun are shifting and this information has been coming out for a while.
A: I know. People say you’re nuts — (saying that) “The poles are shifting.” Wrong. I — right, I mean. I’ve been getting —
B: Well they’ve got to keep changing the flight patterns on the planes when they come in because —
A: I know.
B: — it keeps shifting so they have to — every few weeks they have to adjust.
A: They’re beginning to notice quite a significant oscillation in true north.
A: There’s no question about that. I confirmed that and, with regard to the sun, there’s also a very interesting thing going on, Robert. I’m a ham operator and so I monitor very carefully the sun cycle because, you know, when we have a good portion of the sun cycle, ham radio’s good and you can transmit long distances with very low power.
A: And we have all been waiting for this cycle to begin and, strangely, inexplicably, it has not begun. We are at the bottom and we don’t seem to be able to get off the bottom so something’s going on there too.
B: And the thing to understand is that we — every form of life on this planet is affected by vibration, to put it simply. Scientists can tell what parasite is in your body by the frequency that it emits. They can tell where there’s a problem in an organ based on the frequency. Sound technology has really grown. As a matter of fact, when I was in Roswell I was listening to a man down there who maybe one day you might consider having on your show, David Adair. He’s a rocket scientist. He just spoke before Congress about the project Star Wars.
B: And one of the interesting things that he brought out with his documents and photographs is — (“DEAD”) well, what they’re doing is they are building a factory in space for the purposes of manufacturing, at this point, different types of metal that can be formed by using sound and tone in zero gravity.
A: Who is building a factory in space?
B: We would say the world governments. At this point, it’s a conglomeration of Russia, the United States, Canada and the European market. The experiments were supported very heavily by BMW.
B: And Mercedes, here, to see how they could mold metal in zero gravity and one of the phenomena that they found out that would happen under zero gravity — it’s like when you make metal here, there are weak spots and there are what they call hot spots in the metal. And cold spots. Basically, you take metal, you pour it into a cold form and it reacts to the cold form. And then it settles and it gets hot spots and cold spots. So there are little flaws in everything that’s produced. But in zero gravity that doesn’t occur. Plus, what happens is the perfect alignment of the molecules — molecular structure of the metal creates a self-lubricating metal. Now the implication of that would be that you could make engines that never wear out.
B: That never need oil.
A: A self-lubricating metal.
B: And this is quite an incredible project that’s going on (“THAT”) I don’t think most of us are aware of. I haven’t seen it in the news, myself — which would have tremendous implications on industry.
A: Yes, it would.
B: You know, it’s — I mean (“AS I”) from what David was showing us, there would be absolutely no problem in us manufacturing the same kind of metal conformations that we saw in the pieces of scrap that were found at Roswell. With the folds in the metal — the seven layers.
B: In zero gravity that can be obtained. So, again, it goes into frequency.
A: Well, with what we are doing presently to our planet, we had better be exploring and looking for other places to live. What — you consult with elders. What do the elders tell you? I mean if anybody would know and feel what’s going on it would be Native Americans. With the Earth. They’re closer than any of us. What do they know? What do they feel?
B: That we are in a final days of this dream — that we are at a point where we have absolute choice in the outcome of what’s going to occur. However, we have to now face the karma of everything that we have done up to this point. We cannot escape the deeds of our thoughts. Nor can we escape the deeds of our actions. There are many reasons why the Earth is kattywampus—is an old word—at this point. We have done a tremendous amount of genetic manipulation in laboratories and we have let some of these creatures go, whether they were microbiotic or whether they were insect. I mean I have seen so many different kinds of insects in the desert lately. I don’t know if you’ve been out looking at bugs but you can learn a lot looking at bugs.
A: (small laugh) You can learn a lot looking at bugs.
B: There are a lot of really strange-looking bugs. I don’t care what books you look in. There is nothing to define what these things are. Up in Montana I was shown a new kind of — they call it a bee-fly. It’s sort of like a bumblebee with the head of a fly.
B: And I was like, “Well they did say that new forms of life would be appearing.” And I knew that new life forms were appearing as far as microbiotic life in the ocean. I know that the plankton was mutating. And this DNA structural change — the reasons for this DNA structural change have to do: one, with frequency; and two, with the toxicity that we have basically buried all over this Earth. You can’t keep eating poison without having an effect. And so we’re dealing with now, what?, fifty years since World War II (“S NI”) basically. And what did they do with all the chemicals after World War II—or a large amount of them—was they created, you know, all sorts of phenomenal insecticides so that we could grow crops without insects and bugs.
A: Oh yes.
B: And so now we’ve been eating that for fifty years and so has everything else. (“NOW”) This is a direct reason for seeing a lot of these physical mutations in life.
A: Interestingly, the fisteria I mentioned, with the millions of fish? What’s happening to those fishes when they die, they’re being eaten by the birds.
A: Now that’s going to lead to a change for the birds. I don’t know who eats the birds but I mean that’s the way it works, isn’t it? It’s a sort of chain.
B: You’re going to have a change in the birds. The birds fly over. They leave their droppings. The little berry trees grow from their droppings and they turn into little berry bushes. And the bears eat the berry bushes. And then you may have a five-legged bear. (“UM”) We’re seeing a lot of that. We’re also seeing a lot of — from the elders’ point-of-view, what you’re seeing is that the balance in nature has been so damaged and been thrown out of balance that there is not by the cutting of grandfather trees, by the wholesale slaughtering of whole species of animals, by programs that are being initiated to restore wildlife to certain areas — but it’s not being done in balance. There’s a lot that needs to be looked at before you start to bring wolves back to a certain area; or what kind of wolf are you bringing back. For instance, in New Mexico I know that they’re bringing back the Red Wolf and the Red Mexican Wolf is actually a coyote hybrid. It’s not a wolf. So it doesn’t really belong in that area. And then you go to another area and you chop down a certain type of tree and then you plant another tree because it’s a good timber crop but that’s not necessarily what would have grown there. This is throwing everything out of whack to such a degree that now the animals themselves no longer can relate to the consciousness of the animal world. We’re now picking up — now this is interesting. They’re picking up human traits. And I said, “What do you mean ‘they’re picking up human traits’?”
A: Yeah. What do you mean?
B: And they’re saying, “Well, they’re becoming vicious. They’re fighting with each other. There’s cannibalism going on in the forest. This has never been heard of before. So it’s sort of like the way we fight with each other and tear each other down. They’re picking up our attitudes.
A: There is a true, profound, basic change going on.
B: And one of the things that I remember a Hopi elder saying to me once — he said, “One day, when the final days come, you’ll be taking a picnic and the rabbits will turn around and attack you.” And was it just a few weeks ago that we heard a story about some children down in Arizona being attacked by coyotes? I mean that’s never been heard of. Coyotes usually are a mile away from people.
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A: What is the ghost — what is ‘ghost dance’?
B: That’s a long story but we’ll try to make it short for the listeners.
B: There’s a lot of stories about the ghost dance and I think most of the people are familiar with the story of the ghost dance as it was remembered, unfortunately, in a bad occurrence at Wounded Knee, where the Lakota were going to a ghost dance and they were, basically, massacred just a few days before Christmas. That led from a movement that was going through America around the 1890s/late 1880s that was coined in the eastern newspapers as “The Messiah Movement,” which was originated by a Paiute medicine man, Wavoka, whose — I just found out the other day his grandson is alive and well and will be attending the ghost dance that we’re going to be doing in Montana here in a few weeks. The ghost dance has to do with — if the sun dance is a male energy, then the ghost dance is a feminine energy.
B: The ghost dance has to do with the raising of spirituality and coming into a peaceful way of changing things when they have reached the point that they must be changed. When you have reached a paradigm that can no longer go any farther.
A: Oh my.
B: When everything that it keeps touching becomes self-destructive, then something’s got to change. And what’s got to change in order to affect a good outcome has got to basically be a global vision. It’s got to be a unified vision. In my research on the ghost dance and as I traveled, I was very, very surprised, Art, to find out that there were many, many stories about ghost dance or a ceremony that could be the same as the ghost dance all over the world. I found stories from the Maori in New Zealand, from the Inca in Peru, from the Mayans down in Central America, and from various tribes all here in North America. Each one having their own story of a ghost dance. And the fact that, in fact, it all tied to a prophet that seemed to have — it was the same prophet that spoke to all of these people. This occurred approximately 2,000 years ago.
Q: (commenting) Oh, it must have been Mighael.
B: And this prophet brought forth a teaching of love and humanity and caring for each other and putting warlike tendencies aside, putting our killer instincts and warrior instincts down and working with things in another fashion. The ghost dance that we’re holding now will be the first of five. I’ve been asked to do one in Hawaii with the kahunas and the Incas in November. And then we’re going to be doing one in Peru. We’ve been asked to do one in Peru in February. And the other ones —
A: So what — Robert, what does it really mean? What does the ghost dance really mean?
B: What does the ghost dance mean? The ghost dance means that we move through time and space. We collapse time—I’m using contemporary jargon now—so that there is no past, there is no future. We totally connect to the spirits of our ancestors which are, in fact, us. We connect to the energy that we were, not the energy that we are. Considering in this point in time we have come to a degenerative energy, we are degenerating as a social and spiritual being on this plain. We are falling apart. There’s a malaise everywhere. We don’t have to go into the obvious. It’s going on everywhere.
A: The obvious.
B: But it’s like it can be a doom and gloom story. And it’s like we have simply reached a point where we have to reconnect with our spirituality and from the work that I am doing with the elders on this, this must be a unified effort. It is, you know, a lot of realizing what you were talking about a few nights ago with Dannion Brinkley. You know, it’s we — once you’ve been to the other side, once you see the connection to the foreverness of what you are, then you can draw the power to change what you’re in now. But if all you see is what you’re in now, if the only dream you have, the only vision that you have is shrouded by negativity and pessimism and self-doubt, then how can you possibly create something new? You have to move to another place to see something new.
A: Is that like saying, “There has to be a change before the new beginning”?
B: Yes, there has to be a change before the new beginning. Now the other stories about the ghost dance and there are many. There are hundreds of stories and it’s not a well-known story. You can probably travel for thirty years—because I have—and find maybe one elder in one area who remembers or is known or was given the stories of the ghost dance, that was given a piece of the ghost dance. Maybe one elder was given an alter. Maybe another elder was given songs. Another elder knows the dances. Another elder knows the stories. Each one knows a part. There’s a wonderful situation that’s created by that in that it takes the gathering of all people to create this. In this time it was felt that we have — when you asked me the original question a little while ago, “What are the elders saying?”
B: What the elders are saying is that we’re at the end of the dream. The dream that we have dreamed thus far can go no farther. It is exhausted. There is nothing new. There is no life coming out of the dream. There’s no creativity coming out of the dream. The children aren’t being fed. The elders aren’t being fed. The Earth isn’t being taken care of. We are going in a spiral where we are more and more, with the passing of each moment and each day, out-of-sync with ourselves in our relationships with the Earth. It’s reached the point now where we can’t even drink the water that used to cure us because it’s tainted. We can’t even go collect the herbs because they’re not there. In many places where we go to collect the healing herbs, they’re not there anymore. They’re simply not growing. So when you reach a point at everything — and everyone’s got cancer. And what is cancer but the absolute rebellion of the human cells against life itself. And when your cells rebel against you it’s like that’s the final warning. There’s no place to go from here. (“SO THE”) What the ghost dance does — the word ghost is I think more or less a term that was put out of translation. (“I[T] WOULD”) My remembrances of what the elders spoke about in their languages — it would be more like the ‘spirit dance.’ The dance with the beings beyond where we literally connect to our inner spirits and bring out the strength of what that is. We change consciousness by will.
A: It’s strange that you should mention cancer because the American Cancer Society has had a lot of money and a long time and they’ve been making a lot of promises but the fact of the matter is if you really look at the statistics — for example, non-related cancers of the lungs and so forth, non-smoking-related cancers for men since World War II are up 300%. 300%! Now this is not a battle that it sounds like we’re winning despite the best, most optimistic statements of the American Cancer Society. You’re quite right. Cancer is on the increase in many forms.
B: Isn’t what’s going on in the ocean cancer?
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B: . . . Look at the characteristic of it. If we look at the behavior of it, is that not what is happening throughout the world? That the fact that the ocean —
B: — is now destroying the very thing that gives it life.
A: Yes. Yes. (“SO”)
B: We’re seeing it in the woods. We’re seeing it in the trees. Whatever you want to call that the trees are dying from now and it’s filtering down through all life forms. And we’re seeing the mutation of genetics, DNA. We’re seeing the mutation of the very substance that makes up what that being is, whether it’s the chicken or the egg that we eat or the fish that we eat or the vegetable that we eat. We’re then taking in that mutated gene or that mutated cell and it in turn is giving us cancer.
A: Well —
B: We’re eating ourselves.
A: Yeah, we are. Referring to a couple of things, a lot of people have suggested that these mutated frogs and so forth are a result of some sort — “Perhaps,” they say, “some sort of parasite and that may explain it.” It does not explain why it’s occurring not just here but worldwide. In Japan. In Europe. It’s occurring everywhere. Parasites tend to be a more localized problem. And so, at the end of the day, they say, “Well we think it could or might be parasites but we really don’t know.” With regard to the fisteria causing millions of fish to die, this is apparent — it’s called “the cell from hell.” And this is a little jewel that apparently, according to Linda Moulton Howell and other scientists, lies at the bottom of fresh or salt water and waits like a little ticking bacteriological time bomb. And when enough pollutants, pesticides reach it, it activates. It comes alive and it begins eating living things.”
A: Fish, human flesh — that kind of thing. That’s what’s going on. That’s a —
B: Mutated life form.
B: And also that would support Bochart’s theory where we go to medicine. We basically come from two schools of thought. You have Louis Pasteur and monomorphism; and then you have Bochart who’s got pluralmorphism, which is that life will adapt and take on many forms and will — when we die they put us in a little box and they seal it up hermetically. And we spend a lot of money for that. And then they put us into the ground. And if you were to go back a couple of months later and take up that box you would find all sorts of creepy crawlies in there.
B: Where did they come from? (“I’M”) Everything was taken out. The blood was taken out. Formaldehyde was put in. Everything was taken out that would sustain life and yet life mutates and all of a sudden you have a new life form. If you go to places that I’ve been shown where they dump nuclear waste — and some of these things are leaking and nothing’s growing and nothing can grow —
B: What you’ll see — (“THE FIRST”) you’ll see mutated life forms coming up out of the nuclear waste. You’ll see bacteria growing on the nuclear waste.
A: Let me tell you, my friend, you’re exactly right. I talked to a Newsweek reporter on the QT earlier today who said that they are observing some really horrid little things that are occurring—and I’m going to be reporting on this—at a certain place where nuclear waste is being simply dumped into water supplies. (laughs) It’s unbelievable.
B: Yeah, it’s pretty scary.
A: It’s unbelievable. And the contamination that’s going on. And I know this makes us sound like radical environmentalists but I think that there is nothing radical about simply observing what’s going on. Now you can put a spin on it or you can report on it honestly and I have been trying to report on it honestly. And what I see is profound and awful and it seems to me that there is a tremendous event just down line a little bit. And maybe that’s kind of what ghost dance is all about. Maybe it’s this coming change.
( . . . )
A: . . . Listen very carefully. (music plays) Michael Holm and Cusco. It’s called “Ghost Dance.”
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: AFTER THE COMMERCIAL BREAK, ART READ FROM A FAX CONCERNING FISTERIA BACTERIA THAT INCLUDED THE FOLLOWING: “PRESENTLY THERE ARE FISH, CRABS AND EVEN SHRIMP BEING INFECTED BY THE MILLIONS AND NOBODY IS TAKING IT SERIOUSLY. SEA LIFE IS ABOUNDING WITH OPEN BLEEDING SORES AND DYING BY THE MILLIONS. NORTH CAROLINA POLITICIANS SAY THERE’S NO PROBLEM. I’VE BEEN TOLD AND READ IN NEWSPAPERS THAT NORTH CAROLINA IS ALLOWING HOG RANCHERS TO DUMP RAW HOG BODY WASTE INTO THE RIVERS ALONG WITH OTHER EQUALLY OR MORE DANGEROUS REFUSE. PEOPLE NEAR THE PROBLEM FEEL THAT THE DOWNSTREAM POLLUTION RESULTING IS A DIRECT CAUSE OR CONTRIBUTOR TO THE PROBLEM OF FISTERIA MENTIONED ABOVE. IF THIS IS SO, IT IS A NATIONAL DISASTER IN THE MAKING AND NOT A STATE SITUATION IN NORTH CAROLINA.”)
B: Technology’s not an evil thing. It’s an incredible thing if it’s used in the proper manner. And there’s technology going on right now that we can literally alter the Earth’s atmosphere and bring it back to where it was a thousand years ago, ten thousand years ago. We can replace — there are experiments going on in Mexico City where this was proven that we could reverse the pollution. We could reverse all of this. So the concern really is how do we change the attitude of complacency to an attitude of positive shift.
A: How do we?
B: We simply have to — (“YOU KNOW”) we can only talk so much. That’s the great thing about a dance. We can only talk so much and then we dance. We purify. We go through sweat lodge or whatever our purification means or it doesn’t matter because the Tibetan is going to do it different than the Hindu who’s going to do it different than the Inca, who’s going to do it different than the Cherokee, who’s going to do it different than the Chilean priest. I was talking to a man from Japan who simply said he was a spiritual elder and he was telling me about a school that they have over there in Northern Japan, which basically translates to “the school of the green dragon.” And to graduate from this school what one must do is they must hold within their hands a seed. And they must, through the will of their consciousness, make this seed germinate and grow and turn into a plant in a matter of a few minutes. And this is what they do.
A: They can do that?
B: The powers of the human mind are absolutely unlimited. This is one of the initiations that you go through with this particular group before you are considered a green dragon priest. We have the ability to change anything that we deal with, with our mind simply by the way we look at it. I mean it’s — on one hand we can say the waters are polluted, this is happening; at the same time it’s like it’s giving us a warning that there’s something to be done and we can do it. But why don’t we want to do it? This is what’s making the elders wonder that I speak to. It’s like, “Well what’s happening to people?” People are just laying down. They’re not fighting. They don’t want to change situations. They keep talking about all the stuff that’s poisoning us in our food but they don’t want to go out and they don’t want to grow a garden.
A: I know.
B: So like, you know, how can you complain about what you’re getting from the supermarket when all you have to do is go out in your own backyard and plant a ten by ten lot and you’d have enough to eat for the whole year?
A: Could it be that people — I — what’s the right word? What’s the right way to put this? People have accepted the fact that the change is going to occur and they’re simply apathetic about it in their hearts? I mean I wrote a book, as you know, called The Quickening. And I know that’s going on. And most of my audience knows it’s going on. It documents what’s happening. It doesn’t say what’s going to happen because I don’t know. You more likely would have knowledge about that. I just know what’s happening. But I wonder if people have sort of just accepted this as one of those things that’s so far beyond the realm of their personal ability to change that they just throw up their hands and they’re just going to sit back and become spectators.
B: I think it’s a syndrome of the communication age. We’re being so over-inundated right now with information —
B: — that we almost feel powerless to do anything. It can almost put us in a paralytic situation. It’s like you’re hearing about all of these things going on so what happens is that the human being tends to just shut off. They shut down.
B: It’s like, “Well what can I possibly do?” What effect could I po(ssibly) — how can I get this letter to Bruce Babbitt?
B: And why would Bruce Babbitt listen to me? And even if I did get (him) the letter, what would it do? And (“TH”) this is part of what somehow everyone has got to change — simply by wanting it to change, simply by participating more and working more with other people.