INTERVIEW — TAPE #121, SIDE #2
Q: Mark Russell BellZ: Carol Andersen (family history specialistS: Steven C. Andersen (family history specialist)
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I AM BEGINNING TO TRANSCRIBE THIS SIDE ON THE EVENING OF JUNE 19TH. AS THIS INTERVIEW BEGINS, I AM SITTING DOWN WITH THE ANDERSENS AT MY DINING TABLE. I HAVE WITH ME BIRTH CERTIFICATES AND BABY PHOTOS TO SHOW THEM. JUST AS I AM TURNING ON THE TAPE RECORDER, CAROL NOTICES A FRAMED AWARD CERTIFICATE.)
Z: . . . an award.
Q: Oh yeah.
Z: How cute. What’s it for?
Q: For “Braveheart.” For doing the press kit. But they left off Paramount, which did the national campaign, and just put down Twentieth Century Fox, which did the international campaign.
Z: Ooohhh. (“I”)
Q: I don’t know who —
Z: So you’re working for them?
Q: No. I was, though. (“YOU WERE” “I’M”) I’m still on my sabbatical. I’m still (“HE STILL”) working on my book. (“KKKA”)
Z: Cool. (“YEAH, I’M VERY”)
Q: Everything’s going very well. Today — you know, I’m sort of a non-denominational Christian (“UM-HUH”) but they were having (“[L]IKE”) a warehouse sale over at the (“CHRI”) Christian Research Institute. (“UM-HUH”) So I got a couple books. (“AND”) And I spoke to the — I guess he’s the president of the company. He has his own radio show. (“COOL”) Have you ever heard of him? Hank Hanegraaff?
Q: Well, you wouldn’t.
Z: Is that on the family values kind of station or something?
Q: I’m not sure. (“IT’S”) It’s on one of those Jesus stations.
Z: Yeah. Network. Um-huh. (“SO I JUST ASKED”)
Q: I asked him a question which he refused to answer. (“WRITE TO”)
Z: You’re always doing that to people.
Q: Exactly. He said, “Well you can’t make a circle a square.” And I said — you know, it’s like, “Excuse me?”
Q: Maybe I’m trying to make a pyramid into —
Z: A trapezoid or something?
Q: — an egg. (“YEAH”)
Q: I don’t know.
Z: Oh cool. Okay, here’s — I’m going to let Steve talk because he really worked most on this.
Q: Yeah. Okay. Great. I’m very excited, of course.
S: Well, these are the charts we have.
Q: Oh good. Okay.
S: Okay. (“NOW”)
Q: So do I just add this to what I received last time?
S: Well, (“EDEN”) actually you can replace (“HE DID”) what we did. (“NONE”)
Q: The pedigree chart, okay. (“OKAY”)
S: Now you said not to include all the family group sheets so I — (“DID NOT”)
Z: I think you’ll want them. (“WELL” “COU”)
Q: Okay, for example, today I met somebody with the last name Young. And I remember at one point there was a Young in my family tree somewhere. (“RIGHT”) I don’t know if he was a direct ancestor or an offshoot. Do you remember that? Young?
Z: Not particularly.
S: I don’t — just let me see (“PUT”) if there’s one here. I don’t recall —
Z: Well, look on this list, here.
S: W, X, Y, Z —
Z: W, X, Y, Z —
Q: Right. (“NOT”)
S: — no.
Z: Not on that line.
S: So it’s not a direct line.
Z: See, if you’re here —
Q: It was the Benedict Arnold chart — (“I THINK IT WAS THE”) Benedict Arnold line.
Z: Okay, that’s the Perry line.
Q: But there was one there. That was the first book. (“MARRIED” “NO”)
S: Well, that’s — (“IN THE HAIR”)
Z: Because your family group sheets are going to show you all your cousins. You never look at if often but you really do want —
Q: I would like to see if there are people like Young there. And who was the other one? Chamberlin? I think. Anyway. (“YOU HAVE”)
S: But on (“BLAME HIM” “TH”) this project I tried to focus on the Russells. And what I was trying to do was establish for sure that, first, Jonathan Russell was the parent of Seth and from what I’ve been able to establish I’m not very sure that they — (“ARE THE”) it doesn’t look (“THE”) like they’re the parents.
Z: Because that’s what (“NO”) Darlene gave us.
S: Darlene gave us this but I don’t think this is right.
Q: You know, you can call her.
S: Maybe I need to call her and check with her on that. (“UH-HUH”)
Q: In fact, you’re going to send her a copy of this too. Why don’t you call her and just say, “I’m going to send you a copy of this and these are my questions.”
Z: Now that was in what town in Kentucky?
Q: I’ll give you that. I have that right here in my (“OKAY”) in my address book.
Z: I have it someplace but it will be easier if I keep it in my notes.
Q: I did (“PSST”) send her finally The House of Russell — remember that old —
Z: Uh-huh. (“RIGHT”)
Q: — The First Race of Ancestry.
Z: You know what you might want — (“N”)
S: I’ve got it right here. It’s Wilmore.
Z: Wilmore, Kentucky?
S: Yeah. (“YEAH”) It’s in the notes here. You don’t need to write it down.
Q: But let me make sure the spelling is right. (I give them her phone number) And she’s really into this. (“N”) She’s got, like, fifty discs of information. (“MISS”)
Z: So what we want to do is offer her this and also offer her the program Front End so she can just put this in and she can add anything she wants.
Q: Oh great. (“U”) She told me she had not found the right program.
Z: Well, we have it for her. (“OKAY”)
Q: Oh good. Okay. (“WELL THEN” “UH HAAAH” “YEAH”)
Z: Why don’t you see — (“NO” “WE WILL ALL”)
S: I don’t know. (“IF SHE’S DEMAN”) Maybe she’s very particular in what she’s looking for so —
Z: Well, we can call her and ask her but I’m sure she’ll be happy with Ancestral Class for (“FRONT END” “SO”) Windows. We can call her and ask her. (“P A”)
Q: She does have Windows. (“CALL IN” “DAUGHTER”) I think.
Z: If she has Windows. (“CAROL”) So I will call her. (“[BE]CAUSE”) I think once we have this — because we spent a lot of time putting her information in. (“AND N[OW]”) And now that it’s all in, for her to try to reinvent the wheel would be silly. (“WAIT” “YEAH”)
Q: I don’t know if she has Windows. She might have (“THEN”) that other one.
Z: The DOS?
Q: The Microsoft.
Z: That is Windows.
Q: Oh, it is. (“OH” “PART”)
Z: We’ll call her.
Q: Whatever. (“AND ASK”) Yeah, okay. That’d be nice of you.
S: Yeah, we’ll talk to her.
Z: And send her a program because it — the cost of the program isn’t that much and it’ll be really helpful to have her to continue to put in to the program.
Q: Well, she was nice enough to do this.
S: Yeah. (“AND SO THAT I APPRECIATE” “UMM BUT”)
Q: For my half-uncle, I’ll just make a photocopy of this, I guess, and just send that to him.
Z: Well, do you just want to do that or do you want (“TT”) family group sheets in too?
S: Well, we can find out just his line, if you want. (“WE HA” “WELL WHAT’S”)
Q: Whatever’s faster. Also I want to send him — (“THE” “WHY DON’T”) if I give it to you will you send it to him?
S: We can do that.
Q: Okay, let me give you a copy of The First Race of Ancestry. And then you can just send that with the rest to him and then (“JUST”) add the mailing charge and copying charges to my (“SURE”) bill.
Z: Because I think he’s going to see the family group sheets together too.
Q: Yeah, and I’m sure the more the better. Okay, well, I’ll get that in a moment. (“I JUS[T]”)
S: Okay. (“FATAL” “MONEY”) Anyway, this one I’m not sure about but it’s not too critical because (“WITH IT”) she doesn’t have any further back, anyway. (“SHE HAS NOT” “HAS THE” “AA I E”)
Q: Because somebody told me (“THAT RUSSELL”) — the one thing that I remember being told over and over again was that so-and-so had traced the family back to Scotland. That’s why I’ve always been telling people I have Scottish ancestry. And now it turns out it might not even be Scotland. It might be Switzerland or whatever.
Z: Her Jonathan —
S: But most of these are probably from England. (“BUT”)
Q: Right. (“NO” “BUT HER” “OKAY”)
Z: She doesn’t cross the bridge. And her Jonathan. She’s got five different Jonathans that she thinks it might be. And we’re not even sure that it’s Jonathan to begin with. (“BY THOROUGH”)
S: Yeah. So she’s not sure.
Z: So she’s not sure. (“IN A MAY”)
Q: Okay. Meanwhile, by the way, these are the three baby photos I forgot to show you last time.
Z: Oh yeah.
Q: It’s the same background. All the other photos in the album were black and white except where there were these three in color. And, if you notice, the background is the same. It’s just (“OFF”) not exactly centered the exact same in each one. So it suggests that there are three children.
Z: Or it’s all the same one. (“WELL”) Different poses. (“BUT”)
Q: There were twins — I mean (“YOU KNOW MY” “THAT’S RIGHT”) all me and my brother are is twins. So I’m just saying it’s an odd amount. It seemed like this might be — do the hospitals take photos of babies?
Z: This wouldn’t be a hospital photo.
Z: Because this baby’s too big.
Q: But notice the size of the — (“THE” “THAT’S A CITY”) strange size for (“UH-HUH”) baby photos too.” Isn’t it?
Z: They probably mount this on a 3″ x 5″.
S: Well, for that time period. (“ANYWAY”)
Q: Because I have a whole scrapbook full of photos (“HMPPH”) and they’re all black and white except for — (“THESE”) Anyway, you can see why I’m really curious about the — (“THAT THIRD”)
Z: There’s no date or anything on these. (“WELL THESE ARE” “HURRY”)
S: These are probably professionally-taken. (“LATER”)
Q: Right. (“I HAVE” “NO”) But it’s just the number of them, which is strange. (“UH-HUH”) Anyway, I wanted to show you them just to show there is a big question in my mind as to that third sibling. (“PROTECT”)
Z: That third one, yeah.
Q: And, meanwhile, I do have the numbers here. (“RRR”) In case you can look it up. If you want to see —
Z: Okay, why don’t I take a look at these.
Q: It would be (“SURFER”) the third child. Before or after (“AARON”) these two numbers would be the third sibling. It would be nice for me to rule out triplets.
Z: Okay. (“AND GI[VE]”)
Q: Because, you know, my parents (“WERE”) were struggling. They did not have a lot of money. (“AND”) I mean it’s bad enough to have two children. I could see them (“MAYBE”) making some kind of arrangement with someone for the third child.
Z: And this is Michael.
Q: Can you imagine being (“YOU KNOW”) in my predicament — (“UM UM”) having a possible (“HAD”) brother or half-brother or sister or half-sister and not knowing anything about —
Z: Isn’t this interesting? (“UM-HUH”)
Q: Okay, well thank you. I really appreciate it. Anything you can do. (“EH” “OKAY”) If you remember, that was the first — (“THAT WAS MY MOST”) biggest concern when I started. (“MMMMMMM” “WAS THIS”) And I don’t really (“MAKE”) mean to make hell for anyone. I just (“YOU KNOW”) in terms of (“NO”) demanding where they are or anything. I just think it would be nice. (“YEAH” “NO”)
Z: So we’re really looking for one eight zero and one eight three.
Q: Thank you. (“YOU”) So you know more (“MUCH MORE ABOUT THE”) paperwork and everything. (“YEAH”) That would drive me nuts trying to figure out what to do.
Z: Well, you want the next sequential number one way or the other.
Q: Right. (“YEAH”)
S: The other problem I have here with (“WITH HER”) her line — this line was real questionable. She lists a whole bunch of brothers and sisters for Sardis Perry. And I was real unclear who the parents ) are. And then when I (“UM-HUH”) tried to figure it all together —
Z: Why you’re doing that (“NO”) can I look at those copies again? (“UM-HUH”) Those birth records. (“WHILE HE’S”)
Q: And here’s my (“CLAY” “B” “MAN” “LO[NG]”) longer version of it.
S: And it really looks like — I don’t see how these can be the parents of Sardis because they —
Q: Nathaniel and Mary Williams.
S: Yeah, because he has a number of children but look at the dates. See. 1738 to 1793 and —
Q: He’d be very old.
S: — that’s almost sixty years old. He’s fifty-five years old. (“YEAH”)
Q: It’s unusual.
S: And there were more kids after Sardis. A whole bunch of them. So if he is the father of Sardis, it must have been by a different wife, I figure, but —
Q: You have to remember one little thing. Longevity does run in my family. (“NO”)
S: But then (“BUT” “STILL”) everything I’ve seen says that (“NO”) they think he died about 1790.
Q: Why do they always think? Why don’t they just know?
S: (small laugh) That would make it so easy, wouldn’t it? (“YOU’RE WRONG”)
Q: My family.
S: Anyway, so I think he died in 1790. They just lose track of him I guess. (“SO”) So this is a real big question and this doesn’t look —
Q: Well, I’m glad you’re on that then. (“OKAY”) So we’ll leave it there now but there’s a question mark. (“SO THE” “A MINUTE”)
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: IT IS MIDNIGHT FRIDAY AS I END TRANSCRIBING HERE FOR THE DAY AND BEGIN DRAFTING THE LETTER TO HANK HANEGRAAFF THAT MIGHAEL HAS TOLD ME TO WRITE.)
S: It’s probably — when you go back a generation or two (“UM-HUH”) from here, it’s probably the same family line.
Q: So you put it in because even though it’s a (“FI”) question — (“BEATLE” “BUT”)
S: Well, this is what Darlene has. And I need to talk to her about this one too. Just to make sure. But this one is something that —
Q: Oh my goodness — (“SUCH”) Charlotte Isabel Rowe. Another bel. (“LLL”) She has bel in her middle name. (“EDWARD”)
Z: B — E — L — L — E? (“UM-HUH”)
Q: B — E — L.
S: Okay. (“NO K”) So the Hitchcock line goes back — (“CHRIST”) I think the fifth Hitchcock line is fine.
Q: Okay, good.
S: Although later on it gets a little iffy because it’s real sketchy. (“BECAUSE WHAT” “CAUSE” “I GUESS AS” “THERE THEY’RE ALL”)
Q: The farther you go the iffier it gets.
S: Well, so you get back in here with the Hitchcocks, see? All she’s got is a name. This has some dates here. (“WITH THIS”) She just has John Hitchcock here and Luke Hitchcock. No wife. And no other children listed. (“AND SO”) It all makes me wonder.
Q: It doesn’t say where either. It just says born 1730.
S: Yeah, it doesn’t say where. So when you get back further yet —
Q: Well, she said she had oodles and oodles of disks — (“SIX”) that she had given Russell information to somebody else. (“SO SHE SAYS”) She just gave me what she gave to somebody else. So she could have some more information. (“THEY’LL ALL”)
S: We’ll check with her and see if she has any more or not. (“UM-HUH” “UM-HUH” “INDEPENDENCE DAY”) See, the Hitchcock goes on back. (“MOSES”)
Q: Okay, great. (“SO”)
S: So we’ll work on that and see if we can’t sort that out. If we can get the Russells back about two more generations I think then we’ll — (“NO” “WILL BE”) pretty solid information to go on there. (“I WANT”)
Q: So where — (“IS A”) how are you going to go about this? (“IS”)
S: Well, I think one of the important things is to find out as much as we can about Seth Russell. Where he lived and who is associates were because that’ll (“MIGHT HELP”) give us the clues that we need to move further back. (“ON”)
S: Whether or not, (“WHY”) for example, in the 1830 census (“I”) he’s living next to Alfred Russell.
Q: You think somebody reading this in a book will find this interesting? (“THE”)
The pedigree chart? I think they will. (“JUST”) As sort of a curiosity. In terms of (“NO”) the charts you prepared, (“HOW” “UH-UH” “YOU KNOW” “LIZ” “HOW LO[NG]”) does this compare? (“AND IS IT”) Is there more information? Is there less information? Is it about medium? I mean in terms of — (“DO IT” “PORT”)
Z: This goes back — this is a less —
Q: So this is way above average. In terms of (“SO” “FAR”) what people can find.
S: Generally, yeah. (“UH-HUH”) Because — (“A LO[T]” “WELL YOU”)
Z: There’s a lot of people who can’t even go back at all.
S: One thing — you started with a lot.
Z: Most people can’t go back that far. (“THEY CAN” “I JUST” “NOW IT’S” “TO”)
Q: It just angers me that I keep hearing “traced the family back to Scotland” and now it turns out that it hasn’t happened.
S: Well, it still could because —
Q: Um-huh. (“AA”) She might have it on another diskette or something. (“CALL HER” “LIKE IT WAS” “LISTEN TO”)
S: One thing I found —
Z: Okay, so what I want to send (“THAT CA[ROL]”) Darlene is —
S: You know, one interesting thing that Carol found the other day that we haven’t had a chance to look into yet — as she was looking up some stuff on Bells — (“CAN”) wasn’t it on Bells you were looking for?
Q: . . . Bell, Mc Elhatten.
Z: Um-huh. Yeah, I — (“A PHOTO”)
S: Oh, you talked to him about that? (“THEY TALKED”)
Q: She told me about that book she found. (“HOPE” “RIGHT”)
S: Yeah — so there might (“YEAH”) be some relation with the Bells and Mc Elhattens. (“NO”)
Z: Well, I told him I was going to order it but since I’m going to Salt Lake anyway I’m just going to go up there and take a look at it there.
Q: When are you going to Salt Lake?
Z: Thursday. (“NO”) So I’ll just pop into the library and see what the microfiche looks like.
Q: Great. Too bad they don’t have a book — like I saw (“OUU”) at the L.A. center that huge book on King. It’s too bad they don’t have one like that on Russell or Bell.
S: There are (“I”) some big books on Russell but —
Z: There are books on Russell. But it is not your line.
S: Not the right family. (small laugh) (“CLASSY”)
Z: See, anybody who ever writes a story of their family can submit it to Salt Lake. (“ONE”)
Q: And, of course, all the Russells do bisect somewhere too. You just (“HAVE TO BE”) can’t make the connections.
Z: Right. (“NO”)
S: Well, see, I have a Russell book at home because (“I’M”) I have Russells in my background too. Not the same — (“SSHHHHH”)
Q: No, I know. (“R”)
S: — Russells although they may tie-in —
Q: You have Russells and Bells in your background?
S: Yeah, I do. (“UM-HUH” “THE”)
Q: They’re very common names. (“GUNN” “BUT” “U”) Do you have any Kings? No.
S: Not that I know of. (“RA”)
Q: Or Smith? That was my mother’s adoptive family.
S: Well, I’m going to have some Smiths.
Q: Everyone has Smiths.
S: Almost everybody has Smiths.
Z: I have Kings in Indiana. Yeah. (“UM-HUH”)
Q: You have Kings too? (“UM-HUH”)
Z: (regarding birth certificate) This says you’re a twin. (“OKAY”)
Q: Right — I know. That’s what I’m saying.
Z: Oh, you know that. Okay.
Q: Yeah, I know it says twin. (“BUT”)
Z: But you just want to make sure —
Q: I’ve sort of ruled out Thaddeus because even though he’s only around forty-six, I just don’t feel like his karma is —
Z: Is the same.
Q: — is close to mine.
Q: The first thing he said was about money so he’s definitely my —
Q: — grandfather’s child.
Z: Not yours, huh?
Q: Right. (“NO” “YEARN”) As far as I can tell karma-ically. And I am psychic, by the way. (“I” “I HA”) I did go to a psychic workshop and (“I”) I’ve given a couple psychic readings. But when I give psychic readings I prefer to really guide people to their own psychic (“BUT”) conclusions.
Z: Own conclusions? (“NOT WITH WILLIAM” “STUDY” “WIDOM” “YEAH”) I like that.
Q: Okay, so this is exciting then. This will be in my book. And so anything else new? Have you had any other strange things happen to you since that telephone thing?
Q: Okay. (“OH” “WELL” “BOTH”) Sometimes when you get a (“A” “FIND A”) parking space somewhere. That’s paranormal phenomena, as I tell people.
Z: Oh, is it? (“YEAH” “I” “HA HA”)
Q: My book is telling people to stop thinking of the paranormal as spooks and spectres but as coincidence. (“YEAH I”)
Z: I have a book that I picked up at the college bookstore where my son goes — (“YEAH”)
Z: — called Apparitions and I’d love to give it to you because it’s something that we’ve both finished with.
Q: Oh really? (“I MAY HAVE”) How old is it? (“NO”)
Z: New. (“VICIOUS” “NO” “WELL JUST TO SHOW” “I MEAN”)
Q: Look at some of the things — (“HASN’T BEEN TOO MUCH”) I have some old, old, (“ARE YOU”) things such as John Dee’s Of Spirits and Apparitions. (“A”) And if you notice the binding, these little charts he has are angel communications. They’re exactly like crop circles.
Z: Really? (“YEAH”)
Q: And if you’ll notice, (“TOO”) my painting collection has been expanding a little bit. (“TIME”) I keep finding (“AA”) great buys. (“NO”) They’re all original oils.
Z: Uh-huh. (“YOU’RE NICE” “AND”)
Q: Over my stairs, before you leave you have to look. I think I bought an original Matisse at a local store (“LAW”) for around $300. (“BECAUSE”)
S: That’s great. (“YA”)
Z: Well, that’d be nice. (“YA” “SO ANYWAY”)
Q: I’m going to open a museum someday. (“OKAY SO”)
Z: So, under the . . . Mc Elhatten, Bell, (“SEE”) — did you decide what you wanted to do about your mother’s sister, Margaret? (“WELL IF YOU G[ET]”)
Q: If there are openings (“A” “FOR YOU TO” “TTT”) to trace, (“TO FIND” “THE”) that would be nice for her. You know — give my mother something to live for. (“YOU KNOW”) Other than through her kids.
S: (small laugh) (“BELOW”)
Q: She can mail a nice letter to her or something. I mean I’m just saying if it’s — (“YOU KNOW” “RIGHT SO”)
S: Doesn’t she give you some information about her or —
Z: The thing was that she confirmed that Chauncy was an uncle.
Z: And there was a whole parcel of kids and there were two marriages. I didn’t
bring that note with me. (“NO”) I brought the Bell project with me. So I didn’t bring that one.
Q: Now on the Bell page, (“HOW DO”) what do you think? Do you think you — (“MIGHT”) that other missing page is sort of important. (“YEAH”) And I gave you some of the other names over the phone that —
Z: Um-huh. ( “THAT” “WAS TO WHO”)
Q: — what’s-her-name (Peggy Watts) had given to me.
Z: Yeah. (“MARE” “NO”) What do you really want us to do with it? You just want to find a link (“NO”) to see if it’s in your name? Any of these —
Q: No. (“NO”) At this point actually, you know what I’m going to do? I’m going to give you this book here because I have two copies of it. This was the original case I researched about the Bell Witch, which was an early American poltergeist. After researching this book, I had heard about this other contemporary poltergeist — not knowing (“THAT A” “RIGHT” “IT”) they also had Bells in their family. (“SO UM”) I do have two copies of this. This one has my notes in it so let me (“MY” “GIVE THEM”) go get the other copy real quick. But this has a lot of information about the family all through it. (“NO”) In the introduction. (“COOL” “I’M JUST TRYING TO”) To see — I would like to have a Bell chart — (“THAT WOULD” “COULD”) could include this family (“THAT WOULD INCLUDE THIS”) as well as this family in Oklahoma. (“OH MY”) They both lived on (“THE RED”) the Red River. It would just be something neat to have. It’s possible. There has to be a link somewhere. (pause) Okay, so this copy doesn’t have my notes in it. (sighs) Hoooooo. (“OOOOOOO”)
S: Well, thank you.
Q: It’s not to be read late at night. (small laugh)
Z: (small laugh) That’s what — my son was reading the apparition book and he was saying, “Oh, Mom, you can’t go to bed with this.” (laughs) (“THEY WILL” “WELL I THINK IT’S THE” “THAN SEEM”)
Q: You have to remember this is a wonderfully intelligent Entity that they (“CAME U[PON]”) came upon, which was really an amassing of different people — “BECAUSE HE COULD” “HAVE”) different people’s names and voices. (“BUT”) The superstitions of the time influenced them to see this as a witch. (“HHH”)
Z: Um-huh. (“YOU KNOW MUCH LIKE”)
Q: The superstition is still rampant today because when I spoke to Hank I mentioned that I’d been to a channeler to see if I could channel God and he was, like, “Get security to take him away from me.” (“LA HA HA HA”) It’s so funny. (“WE HIRE” “SUE”) Again, it’s people who project evil into the unknown. And we all do it because look at the films we see and the books we read in our pop culture.
Z: Um-huh. (“UM-HUH”)
Q: And so I’ve gone through that already. (“NO”) Because when I came home and had paranormal phenomena happening, I definitely thought it was a nasty, evil monster spirit. (“MIGHAEL”) And that it was just doing this to prove how silly I was or something. But (“IT WAS I”) gradually I’ve learned that it’s a very loving Entity. (“I KNOW”)
Z: I’ve heard of that too. Lots of times we’ve had something happen —
Q: Yeah. (“LOVING”) My book is all interviews, as you know.
Z: Now these are the ancestors of the current Oklahoma Bell family that has —
Q: I’m not even sure exactly. It’s so (“S L”) confusing —
Z: This came from that family?
Z: It came from the family that you just went to the funeral to last year?
Q: Yes. (“YEAH”)
Q: I gave you the name of the woman who supplied them with that. And she has the one other page.
Z: Right. I have that. (“UM-HUH”)
Q: Okay but remember you have to be sneaky when you speak to her. (“THAT’S WHY YOU’RE”)
Z: I love the way you say — (“BECAUSE IF SHE HEARS”)
Q: If she hears my name she’ll think it’s Satan. (“BUT PAGAN”)
Z: Well — (small laugh) okay. (“SO IF THEY’RE” “IN A” “YEAH I DON’T KNOW”)
Q: Are you interested in things like that? (“WHEN”) Books that tell a lot about lineage? (“[A]N[D]” “IT DOES HAVE HIS FA[MILY]” “BELL” “WHY”)
Z: It does have families. (“WHAT ELSE”)
S: It talks about quite a well-known spirit.
Q: Yeah, it does have information.
Z: So would you like us to do a pedigree chart of that?
Q: Oh yeah, I would. (“YEAH” “PAY”) And then we’ll just try to connect them.
S: Okay. (“OKAY” “SO IT’S”)
Q: It’s just so hard to even — (“DD”) with this kind of history in a family’s background, somebody wouldn’t do more research about it. Oh well. (“I”)
Z: Well, it might be. (“BUT IT MIGHT”) We might find things on this family that we didn’t find on this other family.
Q: Right. (“EXAMINE” “YOU CAN SEE”) Then, maybe (“THE”) you can connect the dots. Oh my goodness. (“SSS” “SO WHAT WAS I GONNA DO” “ALL THIS”)
Z: Do you have a dog?
Q: No, that’s just the neighbor’s. (“OH PLEASE” “OURS” “TOTO”) So I don’t know. (“DOVE”)
S: Well, it has a copy of the (“OH NOW”) older book. (“HH”)
Q: Oh, look, this is a Wilson-Jones (“SO” “YOU GOT”) book that you’ve got. (“YEAH” “THOSE ARE EASY” “WAIT”) Let me go get the old family ancestral file to show you what I mean — where it says Young and everything.
Q: I can’t remember where I put them. (pause) Here it is. (“MADE IT”) I found it. (“NO”) I’m keeping each version too. In fact, I’m collecting family information. See, now here it had — (“SEE” “YEAH”) I love this where it has all the various different names. Like Beckett and West and Hodsell and Freeman. And all these. But these aren’t my direct (“TTT”) ancestors? (“SSS”)
Z: Well, if they are, we don’t know that. (“LIKE SEE”)
Q: Like here. (“LIKE”) Here’s the Young line: Pearse, (“HOLE”) Young — Enmate Young and Richard (“NO” “WAIT”) Arnold. (“[BE]CAUSE”) You know, in my book, I would love to have (“E M”) this type of long, long family tree to show people just how many people (“WE — E”) each of us are related. (“TO”) (to S) How many pages is yours? Yours must be huge.
S: Oh it is.
Z: It’s disks.
S: Yeah. (“I’VE”) I don’t even have it in one file. I gave up trying to put it in a book. (“[BE]CAUSE” “WELL”) Too massive.
Z: Too much.
Q: I might go ahead and transcribe this interview — (“OKAY” “TO”) explain the family tree. (“OKAY” “BECAUSE IT’S M[ORE]”) It’ll be more recent. (“DIE”) I still don’t know when I’m going to go to print. (“CARRY”) And what was I going to ask you?
Z: Did you find a publisher yet? Are you going to publish it yourself? (“UM”)
Q: I have a publisher in mind. It’s my agent (“I’M”) I’m sort of having a dilemma with at the moment because she’s definitely the right one for me. (“BUT I THINK”) Like all my other friends and acquaintances, she got to a certain point in the manuscript and is no longer returning my calls. (small laugh) (“UN” “SO”) One: she’s afraid of the material. Two: she thinks I’m out of my mind. Or three: (“SEND A”) all of the above. Probably three.
Z: So she might want you to modify it before she —
Q: Oh no. No. (“FELL”)
Z: She’ll take it just as it is?
Q: I think she’s taking a more hands-off approach. (small laugh)
Z: Hands-off approach.
Q: So I’m just waiting for — (“SOMETHING”) one of my (“YOU KNOW”) the Spirit does speak to some of my friends (“WHY”) occasionally.
Z: Um-huh. (“SO THEY’RE THE”)
Q: Like my friend, Marie. He spoke to her. (“AND HE WAS”) That’s how I got my pseudonym — “MARK RUSSELL BELL.” And, (“LIKE”) like, I was at Rogers and Cowan — (“WHERE MY”) my brother works and the receptionist heard a name. So He does talk to other people. He doesn’t talk to me. (“BECAUSE”) He knows that would (“PROBABLY LEN”) land me in a mental institution as a schizophrenic somewhere. (“SO”) It’s a very interesting case study. (“SO”)
Z: So we want the Perry line to see if you (“CAN MAKE”) work in to the Young line. (“A FUTURE” “IF YOU GET”)
Q: If you can, add any (“THIS”) information that was in the first draft (“OF MY”) because I just think it’s so fascinating. I just love all these names names names.
Z: So we’re only going to take — (“I”)
Q: But I want it to be correct, though.
Z: Do we have the Perry line to any of (“I” “NOW”) that family? In Connecticut? Because that line is the same line with — can I see that book a second? (“MARK” “NO”)
Q: The first one?
S: That’s the one with Oliver Hazard Perry.
Z: I thought you told me that you found —
S: They’re in Rhode Island. From what Darlene sent, (“SAY” “GO” “I’M RICK”) it goes back to the same ancestor who came to America.
Z: That’s what we want. A common ancestor, right?
S: Right. He didn’t but that branch of the family went to Rhode Island. They were more Quakers.
Q: I mean is there any way of showing these names on a pedigree chart if we aren’t — (“I MEAN”) I mean how did we get them there in the first place?
Z: Not — well, (“OKAY LET’S”) let me just go back and tell you what — this pedigree chart comes from Oliver Hazard Perry. (“RIGHT”)
Q: Right. (“OKAY”)
Z: And here’s Oliver Hazard. It’s off the Hazard line.
Q: I see. (“PE[RRY]”)
Z: So what we have to do is — Freeman Perry marries Mercy Hazard. Here’s the link. (“NOW THAT’S”)
S: Oh, that’s when we thought that Matthew Calbraith —
Z: We found a Matthew Calbraith — (“PERRY”)
Q: Oh, I see. So that’s —
Z: Right. Father of Sardis. (“SPELL”)
S: — was the father of Sardis but we’re pretty sure he’s not. (“BUT” “SO” “BUT IF”)
Z: Well, it doesn’t even match time-wise. (“THAT IS” “I SEE”)
Q: So that’s why the change occurred. (“OKAY I SEE” “SO”) It was hard for me to understand why the changes were made.
Z: See here I’ll show you. (“NO”)
Q: Okay, fine.
Z: Here’s your Sardis —
Q: No, I understand now. I understand now.
Z: Okay, and then this Hazard line. This Mercy Hazard is the line with the Arnolds and the Youngs.
Q: So this is no longer current.
Z: It wasn’t ever. (“BECAUSE” “DOES THIS” “YEAH” “SO I WOULD”) Well, it was to the extent that we felt that he —
Q: What a relief. I’m not related to Benedict Arnold. (“NO”)
Z: Is that nice to know?
Q: Yes. (“SO” “WHY YOU”)
Z: Well, it depends. And what we have to do is positively identify the line that Sardis comes from. It could be one of his brothers in which case you still would be.
Q: Well, hurry up and do it.
Z: Hurry up and do it? (small laugh)
Q: I have to know. Enquiring minds want to know.
Z: Okay. (“LET”) So that’s what he wants to know. (“I” “AND BUY THE” “YEAH HE DOES” “PUT ON” “NO REALLY”)
Q: I would. (“YEAH” “PUT”) For my book — if I can get it in for my book on time.
Z: Sardis (“SSS”) —
Q: And, meanwhile, I do have Thaddeus’s office number too in case you ever need to contact him. I was lucky enough —
Z: — now is he the one who told you there was Scottish —
Q: No. He said that there wasn’t either. But everyone was saying — (“WAS I”) I think my father said, “I think —”
Z: It goes back to Scotland?
Q: Right. (“IF YOU GIVE”) “— that Thaddeus traced it back to Scotland.”
Z: Oh, that Thaddeus —
Q: Well, or someone. (“I”) I don’t know. (“MEN” “HERE”) I’m getting sick of it. (“AT THIS”)
Z: But then you’re not sure that your dad — (small laugh) (“IS” “NO”) qualified to say.
Q: No, he’s totally qualified to say. (“I”) It’s just that he’s so obnoxious and so ruthlessly witty that he can’t write a letter that’s coherent. It must run in the family.
Z: (laughs) (“DUH” “OKAY” “OKAY” “WELL THEN”)
Q: So, anyway, my book is very, very long, as you know. So one of the little New Age games I like to play with people. And I’ll do it with you because you know your ancestry so well. (“YOU SHOULD”) Clear your mind and when I ask you this question just say the first name that pops into your mind. If you had to say someone, even making it up, who are you the reincarnation of — from a former life? Who do you think you would have been in a former life? (“CALL” “QUICK”)
Z: I never felt that way.
S: I know. Nathaniel Ashby.
Q: Who’s that? (“RICE”) Never heard of him.
S: He’s one of my relatives. (“YOU THINK A”)
Q: So a relative —
S: No, it just comes to mind. (“SO”)
Q: Well, that’s interesting that he would come to your mind. It could have been worse. (“IT COULD”) You could have said, “Cleopatra.” But she’s already taken. I spoke to someone.
Z: (laughs) (“RA” “TRIB”) The person that came to my mind was Jane Addams.
Q: Jane Addams for you?
Z: And then the second one was Caroline Mendenhall who was my great-great-great-great grandmother.
Q: Really? (“NO” “MONDAY NIGHT”)
S: You have the same birthday as —
Z: She has the same birthday that I have. (“LESS”)
Q: Well, it’s possible. (“YEAH” “YOU KNOW IT’S PO[SSIBLE]” “OKAY” “NO” “NO”) You’ve seen my little medallion here of myself (“OF”) in Egypt.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I HOLD UP A SMALL DISPLAY CASE FROM ITS PLACE ON THE NEARBY COFFEE TABLE.)
Q: There’s me in Egypt. (“UM-HUH”) And, of course, his name is Bel-Marduk. (“M” “SO”) That’s why I believe in reincarnation. Because that’s obviously me.
Z: Well, I never think that way but that’s (“NO BUT” “THAT’S THE”) the only thought that came to my mind. (“I NEED”)
Q: But that’s sort of proof. I mean if you find yourself in a medallion —
Q: — so I have a lot of fun with it, I tell people I must have been a reptilian alien bent on world dominion (“NNN”) named Bel-Marduk, who also might be the god Amun-Ra or what’s the other one? (“UM OH”) Oh — (“OSA”) Osiris. (“HERE”) I think these are all people (“WHO”) — you know — were based upon — (“YOU KNOW THE” “E” “THERE’S AN A”) the Egyptians always took people’s names and changed things from previous generations.
Z: Um-huh. (“UM-HUH” “NEEDED A”)
Q: Jesus too. A lot of the Jesus things they took from earlier — (“KING”) For example, (“YEAH”) the ankh is probably the source of the crucifix. Isn’t that a pretty ankh, by the way? (“I” “WAS” “OKAY”) So, anyway, so thank you very much and I’ll write you your check and you have to see my new paintings over the hallway.
Q: I have a virtual gallery here. Let me borrow your pen real quick.
Z: It’s in purple.
Q: Okay, fine.
Z: Okay this is $530 this time. It’s $200 for the transcription and $330 for the general project.
Q: Okay. (“IS IT LIKE”) Transcription? That’s what I do. (“WHO”) Who’s doing the transcription?
Z: No. Darlene’s. (“JUST CHECKING”)
Z: Darlene’s notes.
Q: Oh, okay.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I COMPLETED TRANSCRIBING THIS TAPE TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 25TH. THE LETTER I MAILED TO HANK HANEGRAAFF ON SUNDAY FOLLOWS, PRECEDED BY THE QUOTES FROM HANK’S BOOK REFERRED TO IN THE LETTER.)
“Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross.” — Kenneth Copeland
“You’re not looking at Morris Cerullo — you’re looking at God. You’re looking at Jesus.” — Morris Cerullo
“Never, ever, ever go to the Lord and say, ‘If it by thy will. . . .’ Don’t allow such faith- destroying words to be spoken from your mouth.” — Benny Hinn
“God has to be given permission to work in this earth realm on behalf of man. . . . Yes! You are in control! So, if man has control, who no longer has it? God.” — Frederick K. C. Price
“Man was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God’s presence without any consciousness of inferiority.” — Kenneth E. Hagin
It was a pleasure speaking to you and CRI staff members at the clearance sale. I hope you all will enjoy my book Testament with an open mind. Proving love is the subject — encompassing all aspects of the human experience. My objective in working on the book is finding human dimensions for shared universal dilemmas, so thank you for the opportunity to see how I, myself, may have reacted upon encountering someone determined to show how, in fact, a triangle can become a circle.
I hope my collaborators and readers will share my sense of purpose, fun and excitement in striving to provide greater awareness in how to serve God. My basic message is that one best expresses love for God by helping people and all living things in concrete ways, while working individually to make the world a better place with each opportunity.
Having begun reading your book Christianity in Crisis at the gym yesterday, I wish to share with you my interpretation of the quotes utilized in the preface. I find them in keeping with the truth of God on a metaphorical level, which is always the best way to try to come to some understanding of divinity. Copeland’s sentence suggests that Satan—the metaphor for negativity and the darker side of human nature—succeeded in ending the lifetime of Jesus. Of course, this truth has no bearing on the spiritual being who had assumed this identity in a single incarnation. The Creator manifests with every human being, animal and object, so that doesn’t exclude Cerullo. Hinn’s comment can be interpreted as a plea for positive thinking. Price’s quote appears to be about free will. Hagin’s message seems true in that we each have a consciousness separate from God’s.
I propose relegating apologetics to “Love is the only religion” and examining more momentous concerns on your radio program. To improve your show, perhaps you could choose a specific theme for each day’s program. Ten I recommend are: (1) Ways to help the homeless and needy, (2) How you can fight pollution — from buying biodegradable products to becoming an environmentalist, (3) The hazards of nuclear power, (4) The value of volunteer work, (5) The myth of man as carnivore and the risks of eating meat in the 1990s, (6) The importance of physical fitness to a healthy spirit, (7) The worship of golden idols (I.E. the Academy Award, the Gold Medallion Book Award, etc.), (8) The motivations for intolerance (I.E. scapegoating, sexual repression, etc.), (9) The consequences resulting each time when someone looks the other way or doesn’t want to get involved when confronted with some manner of inequity, (10) How the Roman Empire manifests itself in all individuals that don’t give back to society as much as they take.
I hope you will consider these suggestions in the Spirit intended.