H: Hawk (Ron Rink), host of “E-Talk” Internet show
(X): location of unattributed sounds heard on tape recorded from show archive edition


Subject: E-talk show on the www….and Mr Bell is welcome….

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 15:19:06 -0600

From: “Hawk” <>

Organization: MBS Network

To: <>

call me asap toll free for date and time…..(provides phone number)

Thanks ….Hawk

Finallyan interactive talk show on the world wide web.

The Mind, Body and Soul Network presents E-talk Monday thru Thursday beginning at 7:00 pm [mountain savings time].

Visit our website at view our Guest List and listen to the “archived” shows, or listen to the “live” show for that evening. Our contact email is:

Practitioners, experts and authors in the fields of mind, body and soul. An internet-based talk show with nurturing and informative content. And you’re invited to attend and participate.

In the weeks and months ahead, the MBS Network will strive to provide you with information and exploration of areas of our lives that have eluded most of us. In our personal efforts to deal with the daily activities of our lives, we tend to “put off” or delay our “inner-selves” quest to find what’s so about all things pertinant to our mind, body and soul. The past has a wonderfully mysterious way of catching up with us.

The time has come to begin seeing for yourself what has meaning and substance and what doesn’t. What “priorities” are and how to balance them in your life. The visible and invisible. The result might be: Love and Service to your family all of mankind !

If you consider yourself a spokesperson or student of any discipline or organization considered to be “nurturing” or “informative” for your fellow human beings, and falls within the three headings above, this is a place to share.

Please contact us.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you for your service.

“May your heart have the room to hold your brothers and sisters in Love.and may you always fly as free as the Hawk”

H: This is the Mind Body Soul Network over the world-wide web: an educational, nurturing experience offering you a chance to talk live with experts and authors under the three headings of mind, body, soul. I’m you host and I’ll be your guide as we explore tonight a world of mysteries and truths, facts and fiction, intelligence and wisdom. We’ll be talking about subjects that both clear up and perhaps cloud your mind; subjects that are inside and outside of the normal concerning your body; and the mysteries, the secrets, the commonalities of all world religions and spiritualities that not only affect our soul but rewrite history as well. Instead of looking at the differences of man, let’s explore what makes us so much alike. The truth is here, perhaps a moment away, an inch from our grasp, a blink and it’s there; about all things. And perhaps we’ll discover something in a new light. Or maybe not. On the Mind, Body and Soul Network. Our guest tonight is a quite unusual young man by the name of Mark Russell Bell. Mark wrote something called Testament and coming from Hollywood this is going to be a testament of sorts. We’ll be talking to him briefly. We’ll talk a little bit more about Testament tonight but we’ll be with him as soon as he gives us a call in. The website of Mark’s is called That’s He claims that it evolved after he researched talking poltergeists throughout history, including the Bell Witch, Mary Jobson, the Isle of Man cases. He then traveled to rural Oklahoma to interview a contemporary family experiencing the talking poltergeist phenomena. Initial interviews at the website feature Centrahoma’s Bell/Mc Wethy family, relating their interaction with a variety of spirit voices, including aliens. Now let’s go back to Bell. He was shocked as the phenomena continued when he returned to Los Angeles. He stopped working as a publicity writer for Paramount Pictures, the film studio with the familiar mountain logo. As he began transcribing the tapes, he discovered that interview microcassettes contained electronic voice phenomena/EVP/spirit messages (and) unattributed sounds. Bell soon began to realize the greater implications of what was on the surface were a succession of events long associated with the paranormal. (Bell) commented he found parallels between the account of the Angelic force called ‘Michael’ by the family in Oklahoma and (what) was recorded about the angel who spoke to Moses on the mount, mentioned as an ‘angelical spirit’ in the Nostradamus 1555 letter to his son, (used) Edgar Cayce as a channel, was referred to as ‘the Mahatmas’ by The Secret Doctrine author Madame Blavatsky, communicated via the Ouija Board to inspire the Messages From Michael books, and was glimpsed in a near death experience by Dr. George Ritchie as described by Dr. Raymond A. Moody in Life-After-Life. Photographs at the website document spirits and apparitions, bushes that went up in flames behind Bell’s condo, a bigfoot too, and entities at window that some believe to be aliens. The book Testament‘s publication date is January 9th, 1977 — 1997 and the first portion of the follow-up book New Testament found exclusively on the Internet was published on July 20th, 1997. It’s also listed in the Library of Congress Catalog. Now at Paramount — back to Paramount, Mark Russell Bell continued or contributed to publicity campaigns for more than 100 films, including “Ghost,” several “Star Trek” films, “Fatal Attraction,” “The Godfather, Part III,” “Forrest Gump,” “Braveheart,” and “Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.” He says that (after) his experiences, he perceives watching movies or television shows as distractions to the real and important work Spirit calls us to do: helping other members of our human and animal family and stopping the destruction of Earth’s eco-system. Angelic guidance manifesting in his life — in an entertainment industry publicity writer is a metaphor reminding us we each are part of a divine process as we create from our subconscious and shared Super-subconscious mind, according to Bell, whose lineage charts reveal ties with film directors Alfred Hitchcock (“Rebecca,” “Family Plot”) and Ken Russell (“Tommy,” “Altered States”). The Bell synchronicity in his life culminated when he became aware of having lived a previous life in Egypt as Bel-Marduk also known as Ra-Ta (Sun-Earth) the (X) priest. (X X X X) So it’s going to be kind of an interesting evening as we get a call in from Mark Russell Bell all about — you get a chance to stop over there and see it. In 1932 Edgar Cayce channeled the message that Ra-Ta would return to the world in 1998. That year, people discovered Bell via the Internet. As Bell observes in “Publishing Information” at — “Reading Testament illuminates the lost knowledge of the relationships of man and the carnal world with those changes that fade or fall away in their various effect, making plain the (X) interpretation of death. The reader’s consciousness is expanded; (X) thus the ‘uncovering’ of the Hall of Records.” Spirit has made his life an open book so that others can expand their consciousness. (phone rings) He even mentions Sitchin. Good evening, Mark Russell Bell. How are you tonight?

Q: (off air) Good evening, Hawk.

H: Are you there?

Q: Yes, I am. Can you hear me?

H: Oh, now I can hear you fine.

Q: Okay. Well good evening.

H: Good evening. I was just going through some of the information that you sent to me about your past and some of the things that you’ve gone through. And so with that I want to get into where this all began for you. Obviously, you had a life and you had a career and then all of a sudden you started running into paranormal circumstances. When did that begin?

Q: Well actually it had been happening throughout my life but since, as a child and growing up, you don’t know really what the purpose is or what is happening to you at the time, you just sort of put it aside. (X) In my case, I started actually researching (X) so I would read books about the unexplained. (X) And I was always very interested in topics like that; for example, the Loch Ness (X) Monster, let’s say, or bigfoots (X) or UFOs and what-have-you. But what happened is — now, of course, (X) when I look back, there was always a lot going on and I think that happens in everyone’s life without us (X) being aware of it in terms of synchronicity and what-have-you. In my case, (X X) what I would say (X) is what people call God or the (X) Superconscious Mind formally revealed Themselves to me in some ways after (X) my experience (X) working at Paramount on (“SOME” “YOU”) —


Q: — movies. Some with paranormal themes and others. (“BUT”) Basically, I’d been prepared my whole life actually to learn (X) more about (X) Spirit. I guess if you look back at famous books in history you can read books — (“BY”) such (X X) people as Julian of Norwich, (X) let’s say, or Meister Eckhart and you can only wonder what their experience (X) was. But in my case, my experience (X) is something that other people (X) can probably relate to (X) since it deals (X) with metaphors (“TH[AT A]RE”) — very obvious. (X) Such as (“NO”) with working in the Hollywood (“AA”) movie studio and what-have-you. So, actually, what happened is I had written a book about (X) talking poltergeists (X) throughout history. (“SO”) Just (X) the (X) talking version of the poltergeist. And this was something that came out of my interest (X) in the unexplained. (X)

H: How far into it did that take you? I mean how many instances were recorded of that happening? (X X X)

Q: Well there were a lot. (X X) There were some cases (X) such as the Drummer of Tedworth (X) case where there were just a couple instances (X) when a disembodied voice (X) was (X) heard. And in America one of them was the William Morse case in 1679. And you have accounts, for example, in the late 17th Century — one in particular in Pavia, Italy where there w(ere) a whole gamut of different (X X) strange happenings including — I can’t remember, I think that there was the voice there too. (X)


Q: And, of course, (X) the Bell (X) Witch case here in America is the most and best-documented case, I think, of all time. (“BUT”) When I was researching (X) these cases I would even — I, for example — I sent (X) away to (X) I guess it was Harvard University Library to get a case of Mary Jobson. And in this case the Spirit called Themselves “Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the ending,” “The Lord They” — not ‘thy’ but (“T”) “T — H — E — Y God” and “The Son of God.” So things were (X) increasingly becoming more religious. In fact, (X) there was one instance in the manuscript (X) where the name ‘Mark’ was sort of (X) set out. And I thought, “Well that’s odd. (“NO”) I mean that’s (“YOU KNOW”) really strange.” (X “SO”) That was an 1839 case.

H: Well for those people who aren’t familiar (“WI[TH]”) — for example, the Bell Witch.

Q: Right.

H: What is the basic outline of that story? What actually is the Bell Witch about?

Q: Well I think th(e) — see, we only have p(eople’s) — eyewitness testimony. (X X) So what has (or “WHAT HAS”) come down through (or “THROUGH”) — since the 19th Century. (X X) And (X) people love to look at the most (X) strange (X) things and the most (X) evil (X) things. (X “BECAUSE”) What’s frightening seems to be commercial so a lot of investigators (X) concentrate on the most (X) demonic (X) aspects (X) of the case (X) as opposed to just (X) stating what happened. There is one early book where a journalist documented all the things that (X) happened and this was published in 1894 (X) in Tennessee by M. V. Ingram. And (or “AND”) there were different (“VV” “VV”) voices would be heard; for example, a British journalist came and visited the family after he’d heard about it. And he heard his family members back in the United Kingdom. Their voices were recreated (X) there inside the house. And so there were all these different (X) voices (X) being recreated. (X) Plus there was this unseen (X X) Entity who would reveal what was happening (X) throughout the community. (X) And (X) I guess (X) one of the most famous things that (X) happened was one time a sermon of a (X) minister (X) was (X) repeated (X) in the voice of the minister. (X) And there were two (X) ministers present at the time when the (X) Spirit revealed this. And the other min(ister) — the other people joked that the other minister was at a disadvantage (X) because He couldn’t have hear(d) — been there (X) to hear his service. (X) But then the Bell Witch—that’s what (X) they called the (or “THE”) haunting force—said, “OH NO, I WAS ALSO THERE” and then preceded to (X X) repeat (X) the other sermon verbatim (X) in the voice of the minister (X) and this sermon had happened at the (X) exact same (X) time as the (X) other sermon. So then what happened after I researched all these various cases—in fact, I’d written a screenplay based on (X) the Bell Witch case—I heard about a contemporary family (X) living in Oklahoma that was experiencing ( X X X X) the talking poltergeist phenomena. And I (X) start that — in my book I have the Fortean Times (X) article that first caught my attention. So I called them and then I (X) found out that they had Bell Family ancestry (X) as well. (“SO”) I was just (X “A” “BU”) incredulous at that, thinking that, “Oh this really is sort of interesting.” (X X) So when I went there (“ONE OF”) one of the anecdotes (X) — and (X) basically I thought the best way to present the anecdotes was just to give verbatim transcripts of my interviews (X) because I didn’t really know how else to present it. (“BECAUSE”) It was just so bizarre. And one of the anecdotes was that (X) Twyla once had heard a conversation (X) before it actually happened. And later on the conversation repeated (X) and it was word-for-word what she (X) had heard while in her bedroom. So that (X) sort of reminded me of the that whole (X) sermons experience. (“AND THEN” X) After I came home to Los (X) Angeles, I had another experience (X) that sort of indicated that this (X) Force had power over (X) time — over space and time. I was basically (X) — (“I”) I turned on the television to take a break (“THIS WAS”) — while I was watching television. I no longer even watch television. Because what happened is my TV (X) started turning off whenever I tried to watch (X) anything. I guess it was the (X) Spirit. And so in one case I turned (X) on the (X) TV to (X) the documentary show “The Real World” on MTV and just as I started watching the characters were talking about their phone going dead. And (“IT”) it was an obvious — and then my (“TEL”) television blinked off. (“SO I THOUGHT”) “Well I’m not supposed to watch television.” But also (“I[T]”) it was indicating to me (X) again that this Entity (X) did have power over (X) space (X) and time. So it was sort of an overwhelming time for me, trying — you know, working on the book and obviously the Spirit (X) wanted me to work on the book. So one thing led to (X) another. I was also — when I was transcribing the interview tapes of the family members I was finding spirit messages. What we now know — (“OR”) what is now (X) popularly known as electronic voice (X) phenomena/EVP. (X) But at the time (X) I’d never even heard that phrase before (X) so I just — (X) when I published the paperback (X) edition of my book I just called them (X) spirit (X) messages. And I (X) sort of was concerned that people would think that I was (X) out of my mind by having these (X) spirit (X) messages throughout the book but I really had to be faithful to the material and I did have the tapes, which I have played for many other people and (X) snippets on other of my radio interviews. In fact, I’ll play a few (“MAYBE”) tonight. And so even though I felt concerned (X X) that people would not believe it, it was something that I really felt compelled to publish in that format.

H: And you’ve done a lot of — background and worked with, apparently, with a lot of materials of Edgar Cayce and Madame Blavatsky and you compare some things to those — to (or “TO”) — to things that they had mentioned.

Q: Well what happened after my experience I could find aspects (X) of the famous cases that had (X) parallels; for example, Madame Blavatsky — there were all kinds of, like for example, mail would materialize. (X) And she attributed some of these more remarkable happenings — (“TO” X) that mysterious group that she referred to (X) as ‘the Mahatmas.’ However, these materializations have happened in many (X) paranormal cases and, of course, I have experienced (X) that myself. And whenever you have — (“SOME OF”) for example, Edgar Cayce — he always concluded his sessions with “We are through” (X) and occasionally communicated (X) in a foreign language (X) so basically (X) it was (X) an amassing of spirits, different entities coming through (X) a channel. He was the physical (X) channel and yet the (X) — the overseer (“OF”[call tape 735]) of all these different (X) spirits (“WAS A”) was a (X) supernatural Force which again can be (X) equated to Madame Blavatsky (X) and other paranormal cases. So (or “SO”) since there were the foreign (X) languages — and I did do (or “DO”) — do a lot of reading of Edgar Cayce (X) books before I even found that out. I mean that’s something that you don’t usually know. You don’t usually hear that. I just found (X) it — found that in a (X) small chapter in one of the books. (X “BUT”) I did find a (X) few transcripts — (“OF”) the Edgar Cayce channelings (X) and I found (X) them far more interesting to me (X) than just the anecdotal books that passed (X) over that subject. (“UM”) Because apparently this same Force that was using Edgar Cayce as an instrument (X) has manifested in other cases; for example, the Messages From Michael cases where (X) the amassing of spirits (X) began communicating via a Ouija Board. And, so again, whenever I hear about people (X) involved with the paranormal — I myself used to say, “Well he or she (X) is doing this. (X) We don’t really know how they’re doing it but they’re doing it.” (“AND THEN”) What I’ve come to realize (X) after my experiences (X) is (X) that they’re not really doing it. It’s this (X) Force Who’s manifesting around (X) certain individuals. Like let’s say Sai Baba, for example, or Uri Geller. I remember reading a book by Elizabeth Fuller called My Search For The Ghost Of Flight 401. (“AN”) One of the anecdotes she delivers is going to meet Uri but while he was in another room the (X) spoon bent. So, again, (“I MEAN” “THERE”) there (“ARE”) is (X) clear proof that it’s a little (X) — it’s (X) not really the people doing it subconsciously. It’s this Force (“WHO’S” X) manifesting (X) around certain people; (X) for example, healers. There are (X) certain people who have this ability to heal others and it’s this (X) Force which (X) all throughout history has revealed itself to (X) certain individuals. Even Nostradamus in his letter to (X) his son in 1555 (X) wrote about (“UM TH”) power — well he called it “the spirit (X “OF”) of vaticination,” which he said was (X) “by means only of (X) the immortal God and good (X) angels” so again there was another signpost there, if you will, (X) to the Angelic Force. And, again, when I visited the house in (X) Oklahoma, they were calling their entity ‘Michael’ (X) as sort (X) of (X) a nickname even though it (or “IT”) was really manifesting (X) in (X) a multiplicity (X) of different voices, including aliens. So I mean it’s quite (X) a lot to present (“IN”) in a book so that’s (X) why (X) my (X) book is (“IS” X) so long and I have so many anecdotes because (“IF”) you have to really read beyond the surface of what (X) people (X) are saying to try to ascertain what a Spirit that manifests (X) in different forms — (“HOW”) how would a Spirit (X X) communicate to (X) us? Not in a single voice telling us what to do (“FOR”) because all — because then you’d have all kinds of abuses where people (X X) would say, “The Spirit said this, the Spirit said that,” and actually if you really think about it God speaks through every voice. So it does make sense that a Spirit (X) would communicate through actual events and metaphorically. So, having worked at Paramount, (X) I worked on many films (X) with metaphysical (X) subjects. At the time, of course, I didn’t really realize the significance (X) but later after hearing the (X) spirit messages and EVP I actually went to (X) some of my old interview tapes with people at Paramount and I was finding EVP/ (X) spirit (X) messages (X) there (X) as well. In fact I, having transcribed (X) so many of these tapes, I’ve really become an expert. (X) I’ve even — I’ve played EVP on (X) some of my interviews, (X) (“I”) called up metaphysical shows and I played EVP (X “FOR THE”) trying to help others (X) recognize it because you can hear it on just about all broadcast — all radio broadcasts as well as on magnetically tape-recorded tape.

H: I’ve heard that before. And in a lot of cases and a lot of discussions that I’ve had with people who feel that they’ve had contact in one way or another that way, I’ve had always a view — well not always but in the last few years it has finally occurred to me that there are no such things as evil deities. I don’t believe that anyone who leaves here, regardless of what their life was like in the flesh, is evil. I think that basically (“TH”) they try to communicate in some way, shape or form to certain people and I’m not sure — no, I won’t even guess why that is but I think some people are open to it and some people aren’t (X) open to it. Maybe just they’re not ready to hear.

Q: I think evil is an effect of — (“OF”) of a causal (X) agent such as ignorance and unenlightenment. I don’t believe that people are basically bad. I believe that people are basically (X) good but yet when you look at a society like ours where there are so many problems it does come down, I (X) think, to (X) spiritual—how would you say it? (“UU”)—underdevelopment or unawareness.

H: Well it’s almost a common thing now — that under a gnostic situation or an esoteric situation, the words that Christ spoke on the cross were, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do,” which means they’re ignorant. They’re simply ignorant. So the sin is the ignorance of that time and some of that ignorance has spilled over 2,000 years, obviously, because there are —

Q: Well — yeah.

H: You know, some of that — some of those messages haven’t been taken very seriously.

Q: Well after my experience because I had so (X) much — (X) so many different things; for example, when I was in Oklahoma a nail bounced off my head. I had (X) two burning bushes the year before. And, of course, I was working at Paramount Pictures, (X) which has the mountain logo so I did have a lot of religious (X) symbolism in my life. So (“AA”) one of the things I started doing when I came back from Oklahoma was researching Jesus because I was (X) thinking — I even considered (X) the idea that (X) maybe I was the reincarnation (X) of (X) Jesus (X) just because why was (“THE”) this Force communicating to me in (X) so many different ways? And I guess one of the (X) pivotal moments for me after interacting with all these (X) people named Bell — (“NOW”) after reading about the Bell Witch; (“THEN”) these (X X) people in Oklahoma had Bell ancestry. The mother had remarried. (“TT” “HER”) She had a new married name but (“HER”), for example, her daughter and (X) some of her granddaughters are still to this day named Bell. And, (X) apparently, even in the Bell Witch case (X) — (“I”) I don’t remember actually reading it. I mean there’ve been allusions that another Bell family would be interacting with the (X) Spirit. (“BUT”) I haven’t really been able to find the source of these claims.


Q: But — so there’s all — so this (X) bell synchronicity (X) was (X) very much in my life. In fact, some of the old tapes I found (X) at Paramount had people named Bell in them as well. And so when I was researching (X X) Jesus, I actually went to an Edgar Cayce book — (“AA”) no, I mean — I’m sorry, Zecharia Sitchin. His book The Wars of Gods and Men and I looked up Jesus in the glossary and it (X) talked about (X) a Bel-Marduk which (X) was (X) sort of like (“AA”) — his story was a prototype of the story of Christ in terms of — and I don’t really know if Sitchin has interpreted all (X) correctly — but he did talk about (“THIS”) Bel-Marduk who had been (X) apparently confined (X) in (X) the Great (X) Pyramid for a (X) time. There was some kind of play that was found that detailed these events; however, one doesn’t really know how metaphorical it all is.

H: Well actually esoterically (X) there are the works of Blavatsky and then her student, which was Alice Bailey. And Alice Bailey did a book called From Bethlehem to Calvary, in which she took apart esoterically the life of Christ and went back before that. And in — before that, she said that in all the gods previous in the Mediterranean area and the Middle East and the Far East all the gods previous to him had four initiations that they went through. Everyone of them went through it. One of them was they were born in the Earth. The other one was they were baptized by water. The other one was that they had to go through the trial by fire. And the other one was they were all killed and laid out on the ground in the shape of a cross. Everyone of the gods previous to that, in fact, had a mother named — whatever her name was, it was always interpreted out to be Mary. And all of the mothers of the gods all had a depiction of standing on a cloud with twelve stars around their head. So all of these things — and there were more. There’s a whole lot more about that too. But all of those things seemed to have through history a set-up (“SO”) that the people would understand what they had heard in history and know what was going on with the current person. (“NO”) The only difference between the older gods and what Christ did was he went through a fifth one. And the fifth initiation was where he actually rose from the dead. (X) He didn’t die. So he wasn’t buried like the others. (X) He (X) was buried and (“HE”) left. So he rose again.

Q: Well yeah but there are (“IS”) many different (X) conflicting views about exactly what had happened. (X X)

H: Well, again, that was a story. Not what actual(ly) — not necessarily what actually happened but that was what the story was about. And all the stories were in correlation to those things before him in history. Now what actually happened (X) — that’s another story. (X)

Q: Well in my experience (X) I would definitely much (X) say that the word Jesus and (X) Christ are really (X) two separate beings. There was Jesus (X) who experienced the Christ force and I think that that’s probably the biggest problem with Christianity and I do consider (X) myself a Christian. I (con)sider that love is the (X) only true religion but I do think (“THE”) the whole Christian philosophy (X X) is really outstanding. (X) But I do think that Jesus was christed and I know (“LIKE”) the Jehovah’s Witnesses, (X) for example, believe in the Archangel Michael being (“YOU KNOW”) the true Christ or what-have-you. (“IN IT” X) And that’s what (X) I’ve really tried to do in my work. One of the most bizarre aspects (X X) of my case (X) is that I’ve been meeting (X) so many (X) different (X) people who seem to be the reincarnations of some of these famous (X) people; for example, Madame Blavatsky. I also met a gentleman who looked very much like Edgar Cayce. I just ran into him (X “UM”) at the Philosophical (X) Research (X) Society (X) over a year ago. I don’t even know his last name. His first name was Michael and he was some kind of documentary filmmaker. And I gave him a copy (X) of my book — compliment(ary) (“WW”) — you know, I didn’t really discuss it with him. I don’t know if he knows or not (X) but (X) he looked so much like him. And, anyway, some of those interviews I have — I present in my book. And (X) it’s just — because in my case I did find (“AM”) an Egyptian (X X) medallion that had a (X) picture, I presume, Bel-Marduk (X) or I guess he was (X) known as Amun-Ra in Egypt. (X) And I have this (X) and, for example, I mean the last time I was (X) at a (X) psychic fair (X) because I had a little booth where I was (X) presenting information (X) about the book, and this one woman (X) came up to me and she said, “And I do think (X) you look just like (X) the medallion.” So (X) even though I have a lot of evidence (X) for my situation, (X) it’s something (X) that people just have a hard time believing. (X) And I don’t blame them. That’s why I present the information as — in a documentary (X) style.

H: Oh yeah, it’s not something at this point in time that is allowed to be absolutely (X) cleared up but I think in time—wouldn’t you agree?—that it probably will be?

Q: I think that it will (X) have to be in order to make (“SP”) people more spiritually (X) aware because (X) right now when you see how many billions of dollars are being spent (X) bombing Afghanistan, for example, it’s just (X) — (“I’D” X) just think of what that money could have been (X “DD”) done using otherwise. I mean it’s just a tragedy.

H: Well the other part of the coin is too — and this is — and after many, many decades of broadcasting that I’ve been in, I’ve always noticed that when something big happens in the world that takes your attention totally, it’s taking it away from something else that’s going on and people aren’t talking right now about the economy. (“THEY’RE”) They’re feeling it but they’re not talking about the money situation in the world and right now that is A number one, always has been, was during World War II, was during Vietnam. It was during the Korean War. Money is a major issue. And doing business in other countries is a major issue. So really what the major issues have to do with is oil, money, commerce, worldwide power, and it’s — and what they’re doing is, is they’re playing games with the people that they’ve already trained to be terrorists and they train — you know, they train — half the people that are out there including — there’s one thing that I’ve never heard on the air, never heard any news people say this but the day that those planes flew into those towers in New York, (X) within minutes and I mean just a few minutes, like maybe five minutes, the announcer on the network news was using the term Bin Laden. How did he know that fast? How could he have known that fast? Who told him? Who called him? Who said, “It’s Bin Laden. Go ahead and say that on the air”? It happened so quickly that I just got shivers up from the back of my neck. I couldn’t believe that the press said it that quick. (X)

Q: And (X) plus I’m a member of a journalist — journalism group (X) and, (X) apparently, I can’t remember which newspaper (X) it was—it might have been the New York Times—but they had published an article about terrorism in their Internet edition the weekend before 9-11 and then it did not make its way (X) into the (X) paper. And then a different version of it finally appeared several days (X) later. So there’s — (“IT”) it rea(lly) — (“AN AA”) I mean having my own experience (X) with the media is that it very much is a controlled media.


H: Oh absolutely.

Q: And I’ve (X) spent a long — a lot of time (X) discussing this (X) on some of the radio shows but —

H: It’s absolutely and the other part of the coin is, is that the things that it takes your attention away from are the things that are probably the most important things in the world. It gives you an opportunity to take a stand.

Q: Well — yeah.

H: But if you don’t that it’s going on because something else is in the forefront, you can’t take a stand.

Q: Well if you look at the work of think-tanks, (X X) if you look at some (X) of their brochures and I found one, for example, (X “TH”) about (X) the Rand Company that basically said (X) this will be a war of information and controlling (X) information (X) will really be the major concern. (X) And, of course, (X) when you really look at it from the military aspect, you would want to control any of the people that come into the public consciousness; for example, (X) Bin Laden. You really would want to (X) invent a character that you can control because if there is (X) someone that you can’t control (X) then it could be potentially devastating to that whole military mindset.

H: Well they’re not really worried about him. Actually right now they’re taking the attention away from the things that are going on financially in the world and I think that the bottom line is that it’s like we’ve always said kind of like in a curt fashion, “War is good for people once in a while because it kind of — well it spurs on the economy. It gets people spurred up. Everybody’s riding around with flags on their cars. I mean it’s a lot of nationalism as they call it. And it also, if you’ve noticed, has really made a difference in — we were getting real comfortable going to other countries, weren’t we? And now all of a sudden (X) we don’t because of terrorists. So we’ve had — we’ve spent decades — (“AA”) we’ve spent (“AA”) a long, long time with blinders on, being a separatist nation.

Q: And, of course, (X) what I would tell all those people in the government (X) and in the military and in corporations—because (X) they’re all different aspects of the same (X) institution (X X)—is that there is only (X) one country. God’s. And that’s a message (X) that doesn’t seem to be heard very often (X “TO”) to remind people (X) that the United States is just (X) really a name (“ON”) on paper. (X) It’s just (X “IT”) — has a function (X) in (X) terms of preserving (X X) power and wealth or at least what people think in terms of what power and wealth is. (X) And it’s (X) just mind-boggling in (X) terms of the people like me who just want to present their experience (X) because it really much is an experience (X “THAT”) is from (X) my one point-of-view (X X) because I don’t know what other people (X) are thinking and how they respond. (X) I can just (X X) present my own impressions (X) of what my experience was and trying to (X) share that, it has (X X) just been unbelievable. Especially (X X) even with metaphysical newspapers (X) and radio shows and what-have-you.

H: The very power of prayer could stop everything. The very power of prayer could save all the lives on Earth but they don’t — people are — (“THEY”) they’re not convinced that that’s the case. And I remind people of the story back in World War II when the British intelligence found out that later on — there was a given date and on that date they were expecting a total invasion of Germany into England. They actually believed it and as a matter of fact Hitler had actually picked a night that his forces were going to land on the shores of England. And that night — late that night, all the witches, the wiccans of Britain gathered on the shore facing Germany, did their prayers and for some reason Hitler changed his mind and called it off. They don’t have any explanation as to why. There’s no actual reason why he did. He did. The power of prayer can do more than any force on Earth. And if there were anything that I’d advise anybody to do right now is pray.

Q: And you do (X) see the (X) Superconscious mind or God (“AA”) or Christ (X) Consciousness (X X)—whatever terms you want to use—manifesting (X) so (or “SO”), perhaps, there was a manifestation (X X) to people — (X “SUCH AS”) Hitler or as Napoleon — there was something that happened once to Napoleon in the Great Pyramid, for example, (“BUT”) that remains mysterious. (X) And I remember at the time (X) of 9-11, there were record album covers that were (X) suspiciously simil(ar) — (“YOU’VE BEEN”) almost prophetic in terms of (X X) the images that they shared. And in my case (X) what was interesting is I had just happened (X) to send a news release about my website to the President the weekend before. (X) I had (X) written it up on (X) Saturday and didn’t really get around to sending it out of my box until (X) Sunday and I thought that was — the (X) timing was sort of bizarre there. (X) Just sort of a (X) compulsion that I had. (“HA[D]” X) I had sent one to (X) Clinton when he was in office. Of course, (X) I never heard (X) anything (in return). I didn’t have any (X) visits (X) from anyone but, you know, it (X) — I do (X) see on the stats page of my (X) website that I do get a lot of (X) government and military people visiting my website. (“SO”)

H: (laughs)

Q: (small laugh) And (“AA”) now in terms of the (X) spirit messages (X) in my book, I don’t know how much you’ve had a chance to read but, for example, in the first tape, side one, one of the first (X) spirit messages is, “IT WILL HAPPEN (X) SOON.” And (X) that sort of has been (X) a key phrase. I remember in my period before I was — while I was (X) turning on the TV to watch (X) smidgens of TV shows and something (X) was always turning it off, I remember seeing (X) Christopher Reeve — I was going to watch Christopher Reeve be interviewed and (X) he said something like, “Something (X) wonderful is going to happen.” And then my TV set went off. So —

H: Well that’s not such a bad thing to happen either.

Q: Oh I know. Exactly — no (or “NO’), now I know it’s (X) total mind control. (“TEL”) Television is (X) just total (X) mind control.

H: Yeah.

Q: And —

H: Well I’ve heard that. I’ve actually heard the words spoken. No one was there. “SOMETHING WONDERFUL IS (X) GOING TO HAPPEN.” And it was said three times. And I was out in the middle of nowhere. So — that’s another story. The whole idea is that there are messages that are coming across all the time. And, first of all, you have to believe — you have to have faith that there is no death. There’s only a change in your (X) condition. (“BUT”)

Q: See, you’re very courageous (“NO”) because (“SO”) so many people — you either respond with (X) love or fear to these (X) experiences and a lot of (X) people (X) would respond with fear: “I can’t tell anyone. (X) People will think I’m out of my mind.” What-have-you. (“I MEAN IN”) I remember when on one of my temp jobs — and when I was first (X) working in temp jobs (X) after my book came out. I (X) took some rather (X) — I wasn’t sure if I was (X) supposed to be a whistle-blower (X) or an investigative (X) journalist or (X) what-have-you so I took some jobs that I’m really not proud of and one of them was at a company called (X) California (X) Clinical Trials, which is really just one of the most abominable (X) companies in history because it’s really — it pays (X X X X) people for drug trials and they sort of (X) make them to their own — (“YOU KNOW”) their own interest. (X “BUT”) I remember one caller had (X) called in and said he’d heard (X) somebody calling his voice (I meant name). (“AND”) Because of that, (“IT”) you know, he was sent to an (X) institution (X) or something just because he heard it. And then I had that experience (X) when I was like five years old. And (“I”) — there are only two cases (X) where I heard a disembodied voice. One was that time when I was five years old (X) where I heard someone calling (X X) my name. And then one was while I was working at Paramount. I heard (“AA”) a man’s voice saying, “FATHER I HAVE WAITED SO LONG.” And (X) recently I heard my name being called (X) but I — it was in that half-way between (X) a dream and awake; it was sort of a dream (X) state and, (X X “YOU KNOW”) I thought (X) I heard my mom (X) calling my name. So (or “SO”) — but there are (X X) people who’ve had this experience (X) and they end up (X) in institutions just because (X) of that. (“PUT ON”) Some kind of (X) anti-depressant. (X)

H: Well there’s —

Q: It’s ridiculous.

H: In the last few years there has been a very big change of consciousness. Something is going on and it’s actually a change of the ages. And what’s going on now is more and more people are not satisfied with what they know. They’re not satisfied with what they’ve experienced. And suddenly they’re getting older and saying, “What else is there?” And when you start asking if you start asking the right people, they’ll answer you. So really it’s — I’ve seen — I mean complete strangers stop me on the street for no reason at all and I’m not unusual in any way, shape or form. And the bottom line was they’d walk up to me out of the clear blue sky and say, “Do you know what’s going to happen?” And the hair would go up on the back of my neck. My daughter would always look at me and say, “Why are they asking you that?” And I — my answer to her was, “Sooner or later, they’ll start asking you that too.” And sure (X) enough a few months later they started asking her that in school. So I don’t know why it is. I can’t — I don’t have the explanation.

Q: Well what my book documents is (X X) basically how this (X) Superconscious (X X) Mind (X) began communicating (X) me to (X) through individual people’s (X) subconscious. I mean they would (X) speak (X) to me and I actually document this, you know, in my book just by (X) presenting the (X) events — the transcripts of these events. For example, right before (X) the O. J. Simpson verdict was announced, people (X) were coming up to me and saying, “I just (X) don’t want there to be riots.” And I remember going to the hairdresser. She said the same thing to me. And so I just — I have to wonder why this message was being repeated (X) to (X) me so many times.

H: Well there are no accidents in the world. There are no accidents in the universe. (X) Everything’s there for a purpose. And it may be something that’s just specifically for you and that’s no reason for you to shy away from anything. It’s no reason to worry about being judged because it’s a message that’s going to you.

Q: Exactly. And (“THAT”) that’s been one of my biggest problems is trying to figure out (“WW”) when the Superconscious Mind is (X) communicating to me and when people (X) are just sharing their own neuroses and their own ideas because, of course, you do hear (X) just about everything.

H: Well you — if you open up and just leave it be when you get a message, you’ll know what the message is for. And you’ll know what it’s about. It’s not — it’s usually a time of growth. Usually it’s a time for you to grow. When you start hearing things or seeing things that aren’t there or it’s paranormal of sorts, uh (or “AA”) it’s something for you to become a better person about/from.

Q: Right. Well my wake-up call (X) took very many interesting (X X) forms; (X) for example, I was watching once a newscast. (X “AA”) A woman was in a helicopter giving a (X) traffic report and she (X) started making this motion with her arms, (X) which (X) was something that had been used in the movie “Wayne’s (X) World” as (X) sort of a segue (“TOWARD” X) toward the end. And she was mimicking this and the (X) people in the newsroom thought she was (X) just going out of her mind. (X) But when the Superconscious Mind was (X X X) manifesting, (X) it was using many different (X X) techniques. (“I”) I remember people hallucinating around me. I — (“I” X) coins have always (X) been — it’s something I still get. (“I[S]” “I”) I’m constantly (X X) finding pennies. (X X) I found (X) two dimes last week, (X) unfortunately. They’re not — dimes are not a good sign. (“NOT AS”) Not as bad as a quarter but (X) the pennies are always a good —

H: Be careful now. You’re walking on the edge of paranoia.

Q: Well no, it’s just that — see, Spirit communicates to (X) you in a way that you understand. And (“THIS HAS COME”) this has become a useful way (X) to communicate. For example, (“WHEN I BEEN I[N]”) once I was in a temp job. I thought I would take a job in a non-profit. (X) Well I choose the wrong non-profit. (X) I actually chose the Boy Scouts. And, of course, (X) since then I’ve researched and I do see lots of Nazi ties. (X) But at the time I was — that I was working there, I was walking down a supermarket corridor and a (X) quarter (X) fell out of the midair right, you know, in front of me.


Q: And (X) I think the first time I’d ever said this (X) was (X) when (X) I began to be getting a lot of (X) pennies and I mentioned (X) — I think it (X) was to (“RI”) — to someone in a salon, my haircutter or something — I said, (X “WW”) “You know, pennies are a good sign. What are quarters? They must be a bad sign.” Well since that was my belief system, that was how (X) Spirit was (X) going to communicate to me to sort of (X) help me from making a mistake or (X) continuing to make a mistake. And, also, before my (X) experience in Oklahoma I had seen movies like “Orlando,” “Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me”; I went to the plays “Angels in America.” So I had been seeing lots of angels. (X X) Now I don’t even go to the movies any more because I just — I think (X) that (X) people are just (X) too lost in fantasy an(d) (X) my own life — the quality of my life (X) has advanced significantly (X) once I stopped going to (X) these movies. I think people are — instead of looking at the problems in society, they’re just trying to (X) forget reality by these (“YEAH”) illusions that the movies present.

H: Time to yourself is very good. The last night, my guest and I were talking about meditation. And I said, “Well it’s a little different in the Western world than in the Eastern world. In the Western world — especially in the western portion of the United States we have a saying: “Angels speak to those who walk in the woods.” So all you need to do is spend some time out in the woods walking by yourself. Give yourself a chance to think. If you look back on the old story — Christ walked in the desert for thirty days. That was a plan. That was not an accident. (X X) And that’s how he got a lot of his messages and a lot of his calmness and a lot of his knowledge. Angels speak to those who walk alone. That’s kind of neat.

Q: Yeah, well I would say my trial by fire has been (X) trying to (X) make a living after having this type of experience (X X) because even amongst (X) friends, I mean — first of all the word “God” is a definite word that (X) people don’t want to hear in terms of manifesting in someone’s life. They don’t, (“AA”) for whatever rea(sons) — for many different reasons.

H: Well I might say in that point then you’re in the wrong circle. (“YOU NEED”) You really need to find a circle because there are a lot of people that want to talk about that. There are a lot of people who want to know more about it or want to experience things like that. And when you go out looking for it, you’re not going to find it.

Q: I do get some nice Emails (“FROM”) from these (X) people.

H: Oh yeah.

Q: But I’m just saying my — the (X) people who have been my friends (X) and my (X) family just have not been that (X) supportive.

H: No, they weren’t with me when I was a musician as a kid either.

Q: Exactly.

H: Yeah, they thought, “Well musicians never going to go anywhere.” (“YEAH”) That’s a bad thing. I was the black sheep of the family and I was always thought of like that by my regular relatives but now as (“NO”) most of them are gone, the ones that are left and I get along fine.

Q: Well I (X) started (X) going to expositions (X) like metaphysical (X) New Age expos (X) and what-have-you. And I realized that some of the — (X) first of all, you always (X) have to wonder if somebody is lying. That’s the first thing you have to do because (X) so many (X) people for self-enrichment (X) they’ll offer advice that (X) conforms with popular (X) superstitions or give advice that comforts people. (X) Then there are those who seem to have an agenda of disinformation and I know many channelers who mention (X) some of their military roots and you have to wonder what exactly is (X) going on. I mean I’ve been (X) to lectures where somebody will say that they were — that they met Rockefeller (X) at an early age (X) who suggested that they join one of those (X) overseas programs (I think it was the Peace Corps) — I can’t remember which one but (“IT”) you really wonder if there are wealthy entrepreneurs and corporate executives and military leaders (X) who basically share their own self-interest: basically, profit margins and their own perception—usually wrong—(X) of (X) power by somehow wanting to preserve the status quo.

H: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. There’s absolutely a plan there. There has always been and there always will be those who believe that there are caste systems. And that is the rich are richer and the poor are poorer. I mean it’s that — you know, and it’s nothing personal. It’s just in their lives. It’s no different from the kings of all the nations have for centuries, for millenniums, have traded their daughters and sons to keep royal blood in the family. It’s all been by design. Of course, sometimes it hurts their families but (or “BUT”) they’re not worried about that at the time they do it because they feel that’s the right way to do it. So — well you got along in the 20th Century and you got a young prince who finds a schoolteacher and marries her. And she’s not ready for that kind of a life. What do you do? The schoolteacher walks away. Then, of course, the schoolteacher dies. And Diana was a wonderful person but she wasn’t full into that. She didn’t really go into that totally. Neither did the other prince’s wife either, I don’t think. The redhead.

Q: Well I wasn’t really ready for my marriage because really this is what it became in (X) terms of (X) writing my book and what-have-you. But I have been (X) able to document how (X) certain individuals with metaphysical (X X X) experience interact with me. And, for example, radio talk show hosts and what-have-you. (“BUT”) If (X) they can’t (X) treat me in an honest way based on some of the radio programs’ needs, (X) can you imagine how people (X) with (X) (“LI”) very limited (X X) spiritual awareness (X) respond? For example, at my temp agency. (X) Before 9-11 I really didn’t have (X) too much of a problem getting work all the time because I would (X) tell them I don’t want to work for (X) shareholder companies; I didn’t really want to work for aerospace, (“AA”) insurance (X) companies, lawyers — I wanted to work for (X) small (X) manufacturing (X) companies. (“OR”) Perhaps in the education (X) field (X) or (X) something. (“BUT”) Since 9-11 it’s been (“HAR”) — there’ve been fewer jobs. (“SO”) They just have not been willing (X “TO WOR”) — deal with me. (X) And I — (“I”) it’s not just the lack of jobs, it’s something — they almost take it personally (“THEY THEY”) that you will reject an assignment. And so that’s (X) sort of been a trial by (X) fire for me because I don’t really have — I don’t know how to make (X) people like me and understand that as a (X) spiritual (X) author I just can’t take any job. It makes no sense to send me to a company that has military contracts because it’s just — I mean —(“I’LL” “I WO[N’T]”) I’ll be (“END UP CITY” or “END UP SETI”) sent home anyway.

H: Well then I’ll make a suggestion, Mark. What you really need to do is get into a spiritual company. And there are plenty of them out there. And all you need to do is search them out on the Net and put out your resume to them because the bottom line is if you’re willing to give of yourself, (X) you’re going to get it back.

Q: Well I do feel that — yeah.

H: In other words, it’s not somebody’s doing it to you. What it is, is you’re shook up to the point where you have no control. If you don’t have the control on it, (X) you can’t blame someone else. You have to look at it how you’re looking at it and see how you’re looking at it in a more healthy way. (X) So get away —

Q: Well I did get a job today. I did get a job today through an agency. (X)

H: Yeah. (“AA”)

Q: But —

H: And it may or may not work out but the bottom line is, is that as a seer I see there’s a possibility of you having a lot happier life if you get into — yourself into an organization that you can use your creative abilities, that you can talk about the things that incredibly changed your life and nobody’s going to point their finger at you and go, “Nah nah nah nah nah nah.” See?

Q: Oh I’m trying. Believe me. And I do believe (X) that we do have Angelic guidance helping us. And I (“HAVE”) prayed, believe me. So — no, I do hear what you’re saying.

H: Yeah. (“AA”)

Q: But I do feel that (“YEAH”) one of the things I learned from having — from learning about (X) my previous incarnation is to avoid making the same (X) mistakes in this lifetime. (“AN”) What I might share — I hope it’s not too (X) bitchy but I would just (X) share with those temp agency staffing professionals (X “THAT”), perhaps, (X X) they may have been slave traders in a (X) previous lifetime and might be making the same mistake for all we know. We (X) don’t really know.

H: Yeah.

Q: But I know that’s the way that they treat me.

H: You listen — listen to yourself. When I said “Walk in the woods. The angels will tell you.” All you need to do is go out by yourself (X) for a while and listen to (X) what your body and your soul tells you (X) because that’s where the messages are going to come through.

Q: Right.

H: And it’s easy to be guided that way if you just open up and (X) let it happen rather than try to fight the establishment because the establishment will roll over you with . . .

Q: Well that’s what I — I’m just sort of lamenting that. I’m just lamenting that somebody can’t (X) tell someone at an agency, “This is the (X) kind of job I want.” And it becomes this huge big deal (X) of challenging (X) the whole (X) corporate nature of the industry. Well you’re (X) not supposed to question (X) them.

H: Well — (X)

Q: But yet (X) I’m a nice guy. I mean I’m very grateful and I do a good (X) job. So (“I” X) what’s wrong with asking for a particular type of work?

H: Nothing.

Q: Well —

H: And if they don’t have it, (X) go to the next person to ask them. (X)

Q: I’ve pretty much have had with temp agencies. (X)

H: Yeah.

Q: I did get a job just today at a — beginning at a hospital (X X X X X) so it’ll be my first hospital job. (X)

H: Yeah.

Q: So that should be interesting.

H: Well, see, that’s a place where they serve people and that’s a good thing to be. That’s a very good thing. So what’s your next plan. Are you going to write any more? (X)

Q: Well I’m adding transcripts (X) to the website (X) when I can. Of course, my first (X) book — after I published it, the Internet was just taking on (X) steam. So, (X X) as soon as I could, I did put the whole book (X) free of charge on the Internet at And then I started adding new interviews and materials (X X) to a second book published at the website (X) too. (X) And I just call (X) that New Testament. (X X) And, (X) for (X) example, my radio interviews. I’ve been putting those transcripts up and those are very popular. (X) I have photos (X) that are pretty popular.

H: And I want to interject I’ve been through your site (X) and it’s very interesting and its (X) very entertaining and it’s very informative (X) and you’ve got a lot of things to (X) read through. And I would encourage (X) people to go to and you’re going to find it. Don’t put the www on there. You don’t need it. Just (X) and find out more about the inner workings of Mark Russell Bell. Mark, I want to thank you for being with us. Our time is about up this evening. And I want to remind you (X) that this program is going to be archived (X) so that anyone can listen to it. (X) And I would ask you that in the future is it possible to come on back and visit with us?

Q: Sure. (“I HAVE”) And I have some EVP I would like to play. (X)

H: Okay. If you can just whip one through because I’ve got (X) moments left.

Q: Okay. Very quickly, this will be myself. Hold on. (music starts)

Q: (clip) . . . profanity was flying. (EVP hard here is difficult to translate) I’m sure . . .

Q: Well it sounded like Swedish to me. (“WITH”) Did you hear that?

H: Uh-huh. (X)

Q: If it’s on the archive, they’ll be able to hear it. (X)

H: Ahh. So we’ll point (X) them to that. Go to the archives . . . (X) Got any more?

Q: It takes me (X) a while to set up the tapes so —

H: No problem. We’ll ask everybody to go to the site and take a listen to it and read the book (X) and read all the (X) transcriptions. (X) And I, again, I do ask you to be ready if we call you (X) back again. And I want to thank you for the time that you’ve taken tonight to be with us on the (X) MBS network.

Q: Thank you so much, Ron.

H: You bet. And you have a great way (or “WAY”) — weekend.

Q: Okay. (X) (off air) Good night. (music)


H: That about wraps it up for this evening. You’ve been listening to the Mind Body and Soul Network over the World Wide Web. We invite comments of any kind and welcome Email. It’s at Visit our web, (X) listen to our archive shows. Like the universe and the world we occupy, the MBS Network was created to evolve, to change, to grow with your assistance and ideas and comments absolutely make a difference. Tell your friends to visit us Monday through Thursday evenings 7 p.m. Mountain Savings Time. Tune in. Call in. Talk about what’s on your mind and in your heart. This program’s a gift produced and directed by the Hawk, blessed by God and to be shared by all of us. Now I’d like to give you the great invocation. From the point of light within the mind of God let light stream forth in to the minds of men. Let light descend on Earth. From the point of love within the heart of God, let love stream forth into the hearts of men. May Christ return to Earth. From the center where the will of God is known, let purpose guide the little wills of men, the purpose which the masters know and serve. From the center, which we call the race of men, let the plan of love and light work out. And may it seal the door where evil dwells. Let light and love and power restore the plan on Earth. From a nest high up in the mountains of the Southwest, I bid you good night. The blessed light today deserve dreams of a better day bestowed on you tomorrow.

Subject: Re: True or False: NYT Article Removed from Website and Nexis?

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:22:44 -0500

From: “Stephen C. Miller” <>



I’m posting an official reply to this query on behalf of the Times.

>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:51:55 -0500

>To: “David Schankula” <>

>From: Bill Borders <>

>Subject: article on bin Laden tape.


>Dear Mr. Schankula:


>I apologize for not answering your question earlier about who I am. Should

>have. I am a senior editor of The New York Times, and one thing I do

>around here is look into these kinds of questions. I am sorry it has taken

>me several days to get you a reply, but as I told you earlier, I really

>had no explanation, and couldn’t even guess what it could be. But now I know.


>The John Burns article you read was indeed prepared in the first week of

>last September. It was scheduled to be published in the paper of Sunday,

>Sept. 9. On the afternoon of Saturday the 8th, it was posted on the Web

>site by editors who expected it to be in the paper printed later that day.


>At the last minute, the article was held out of the paper, as sometimes

>happens with the Sunday paper, because space was tighter than had been

>expected, and this account of this tape by a relative unknown named bin

>Laden did not seem very pressing. In the normal course of things, it would

>have presumably been printed in the paper in the following few days, or

>maybe the following Sunday. Because it had not been published in the

>newspaper, it was taken off the Web site, which is completely routine.

>(This was still, remember, before the attack on the World Trade Center,

>and before bin Laden’s name was widely known.)


>Then came Sept. 11, giving bin Laden’s tape a new and different

>significance. John Burns rewrote and lengthened the article in light of

>the attack on the World Trade Center. That article was published

>immediately, in the paper of Sept. 12, and posted on the Web site.


>So that’s that, no conspiracy, no governmental involvement. In hindsight,

>of course, we wish the article HAD been printed in the newspaper two days

>before the attack, which certainly would have made The New York Times seem

>quite smart.


>Thanks for your interest. If there is anything more that I can tell you

>about all this, please don’t hesitate to get back to me.


>Best regards, Bill Borders




>At 09:25 PM 2/19/02 -0500, you wrote:

>>Dear Mr. Borders,


>>A Yahoo! search for “On Videotape, Bin Laden Charts a

>>Violent Future” produces, among other things, the following link:


>>New York Times – Today’s Headlines





>>This takes you to the September 12 article.


>>The search also produces this link:




>>which produces the article in the layout. i’ll send it along

>>as its own email momentarily.



>>Now, I did go today to the library to look at the microfilm from

>>September 9th. Indeed, the article is not there. Were I a cospiracy

>>theorist, my immediate thought would be that the Times took it out when

>>setting the microfilm. I am not, however, and thus, I am somewhat

>>baffled. If you have any explanations for this, I’d love to hear them. It

>>could be an elaborate hoax, but I doubt that. Because there is an actual

>> web address for the specific article in question, I am led to

>>believe that once upon a time, the specific article existed at that

>>address. Because that address, when entered, takes one directly to a

>>similar article from three days later, automatically, I am led to believe

>>that someone at the Times did this intentionally—and without making any

>>note of it to the reader. They are, indeed, different articles. One talks

>>of the neglect the video has recieived, the other talks, repeatedly, of

>>the helplessness of america. In fact, it beats us over the head with it.

>>It’s an interesting change. Now, if the article from September 9th was

>>never printed then, of course, it would make sense that Lexis-Nexis would

>>not have it on file. However, would that also explain why

>>does not have it in its own archives? And further, why was the original

>>article scratched—and its address linked directly to a different one?

>>Why would the Times take off its own site an article which might well be

>>insightful in the examination of possible intelligence failures pre-9/11?



>>Thank you again, and, again, I look forward to hearing back from you.


>>David Schankula



>>ps: Also, what position do you hold at the Times? I sent my letter to the

>>”editor” and also to Maureen Dowd. For who are you directly working, if

>>you don’t mind my asking?


At 09:37 AM 02/23/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>Does anyone from the New York Times or Lexis/Nexis have any further

>background on whether this is true?


>Michael Ravnitzky,





> Loss of access to online materials is not just a problem of

> government information. A New York Times article published on

> Sept 9, 2001 has been withdrawn from the Times web site and

> Lexis/Nexis. The piece about Osama Bin Laden by reporter John

> Burns discusses a 2-hour videotape by Bin Laden that intelligence

> agencies first saw in June 2001. The Times replaced the article

> with a different article by Burns on September 12. The original

> article and a story about its removal are available here:


Stephen C. Miller

Assistant to the Technology Editor

The New York Times

229 W. 43rd Street

New York, NY 10036

212 556-7564

“Why not go out on a limb, that’s where the fruit is.”

Mark Twain